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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

Old 19th Oct 2019, 17:51
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Originally Posted by pilotmike
Hey, we've not seen one of those comedy, 'here today, gone tomorrow' pop-up shills for Boeing on these pages for a while, trotting out their monotonous mantra:

"Blame those stupid f'ing foreign pilots"

"Western trained pilots would have been able to handle it fine"

"Just fly the f'ing aeroplane"

"Everyone should have understood how MCAS worked after LionAir stupidly put their MAX into the sea"

"Any competent pilot would just have trimmed then switched the trim cut-outs"

Lost your tongues? Or other bits of your anatomy?

I'll bet PPRuNe will readily be able to provide the identities / IP addresses of the ones who shamelessly kept on posting here, trying to blame everybody but Boeing in their efforts to sway opinion on the root causes of all those deaths. Now, wouldn't it look really bad if they were found to have any links to Boeing?
Strawman. And what kind of lunatic goes asking for IP addresses of other people on a message board?

Another question: what percentage of people on here do you suppose have as much as a student pilot certificate? Clearly at least half the people posting in this thread would think Bernoulli was a painter or composer.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 17:58
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"So far we where told that MCAS was initially designed to work only at very low speeds"

Nope just the opposite - at near cruise at altitude and a steep bank ' windup' turn at edge of normal- extreme flight envelope

Go look up satguru stuff or seattle times

Thats why only .6 degrees change in stab was needed. But at low speeds, they needed more deflection- changed it by a factor of 4- never notified FAA re the 2.4 degree whack.

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Old 19th Oct 2019, 18:10
  #3203 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by mryan75
And what kind of lunatic goes asking for IP addresses of other people on a message board?
Criminal investigators and attorneys in civil suits. If and when they think that information may be relevant and they can get a court to issue subpoenas. Perhaps not all that likely, in this case, but you asked.

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Old 19th Oct 2019, 18:39
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think Bernoulli was a painter or composer
...whereas the knowledgeable few know that the mere mention of Mr B on this forum is enough to spark hundreds of pages of futile argument. And at the end we STILL don't know whether he was a painter or a composer.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 19:07
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Originally Posted by n5296s
...whereas the knowledgeable few know that the mere mention of Mr B on this forum is enough to spark hundreds of pages of futile argument. And at the end we STILL don't know whether he was a painter or a composer.
A composer, as anyone familiar with his famous Wind Symphony and the remarkable Fantasia for Fluids would know.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 19:12
  #3206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mryan75

Strawman. And what kind of lunatic goes asking for IP addresses of other people on a message board?

Another question: what percentage of people on here do you suppose have as much as a student pilot certificate? Clearly at least half the people posting in this thread would think Bernoulli was a painter or composer.
And you think only pilots are familiar with Bernoulli? Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 19:18
  #3207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mryan75
Strawman. And what kind of lunatic goes asking for IP addresses of other people on a message board?
Various Authorities have already demanded - and received - highly sensitive documents and other commercially sensitive information they deem necessary to try to get to the bottom of who knew what when. Boeing is highly likely to be facing some very big Legal battles. Any Court can request PPRuNe to give details of who posted what. It wouldn't look good for Boeing if it transpired they had a very close connection to various contributors who did their damnedest to try to divert all attention away from the failings of their aircraft design, instead repeatedly trying to shine the spotlight on the pilots and to put the blame on them, in what appears could possibly be a desperate PR exercise.

Do you really consider such Authorities requesting access to such important evidence to be lunatics?

And I really fail to understand your gripe about which contributors have pilot licences. I happen to have ATPL, but I don't see the relevance. What is clear, is this is often a highly technical area of discussion, and a great many of highly knowledgeable and articulate contributors are kindly sharing their expert knowledge for everyone's benefit. I am grateful to them for doing so; they clearly know far more about the technicalities and systems than most pilots are ever likely to know. I doubt many of them have any pilot licence, as you disparagingly comment, however that takes absolutely nothing away form their highly valuable contributions.

You have condescendingly told contributors to 'go off back to their Flight Sim' when you have not agreed with their comments. Why can't you accept that many of the contributors know far more than you do, and that your continual berating of non-pilot contributors is quite ridiculous?

It is clear why my comment about contributors who criticised the accident pilots, but bragged about how great all Western crews are has apparently upset you so much. Do you remember who posted this remark about how wonderful Western pilots are compared to the accident crew's abilities?
I still believe 100% that a US or European crew wouldn't have had any problem at all
It seems all the more daft, now more is known about even Boeing's technical pilots being surprised, caught out, and thoroughly confused about MCAS's actions. And they were the ones who already knew about Boeing's clandestine, pernicious piece of software.

And remind us, who had to eat a load of humble pie after spouting off about the Ethiopian crew, only to discover that the victim FO did a far better job than you ever imagined a foreign pilot could possibly have done?

Last edited by pilotmike; 19th Oct 2019 at 19:57.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 19:21
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Strawman. And what kind of lunatic goes asking for IP addresses of other people on a message board?

The kind of person looking to use the full force of the judiciary against those who posted comments around an operator’s fuel policy a number of years ago. This is why there are sticky posts about posting responsibility. I believe that the board owners were forced to hand over the details by those wanting to litigate, but it is all old history now.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 19:38
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner
And you think only pilots are familiar with Bernoulli? Ignorance is bliss.
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You mean Euler, right? https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/bernnew.html
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 19:51
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Originally Posted by derjodel
He too, an a few others. 😉
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 19:58
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Re Tomaski’s post #3192, and subsequent discussions.
The points made are prefixed as ‘possible’, but subsequently argued as fact without supporting evidence.

Re MCAS design, from what has be been attributed to reliable description, the theory of MCAS is consistent with methods of enhancing stability shortfalls, e.g. Mach trim. However the design engineering implementation of MCAS, single system, etc, fell short of what was required or that which should have been detected - the debate goes on.

Re FAA weaknesses in oversight and certification process; most likely, but these deficiencies have been noted, investigated, and action is expected. They are central to the accidents, but apparently not unique - a continuing concern.

Re ‘glaring deficiencies’ in operator maintenance; the scant information relating to the accidents published so far indicates that maintenance activity could be judged as good as might be expected given the lack of published information about MCAS - or of its existence at all, at that time.

Re crew training relating to the accidents; no evidence provided at all. Pure supposition based on hindsight, reinforced by the ongoing debate as to how much credit should be allocated to crew intervention, alerting systems, procedures, and the apparent inability to manually move the trim from extreme positions.

These accidents should provide many lessons to be learnt; the first and very important is to beware hindsight bias.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 20:52
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded
As has frequently been the case over the past months, the Seattle Times story on this development appears to be the most comprehensive and insightful of the mainstream press coverage. I don't think it's been linked here yet.

Stunning messages from 2016 deepen Boeing's 737 MAX crisis
In a statement, captain Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airline Pilots Association (SWAPA), said, “This is more evidence that Boeing misled pilots, government regulators and other aviation experts about the safety of the 737 MAX. It is clear that the company’s negligence and fraud put the flying public at risk.”
Wow. Accusations of fraud coming from the pilots of one of Boeing's largest customers... Not a good week for Boeing.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 21:00
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Originally Posted by Grebe
Actually, if one looks at what was released, they used their boeing email address. It probably took boeing perhaps 1/2 to one hour after A request to find ALL emails over the last three to 5 years between all those involved and less than that to sort thru their emails based on word or phrase search.

Boeing has used an equivalent to a VPN for decades which allow any employee to use their boeing email from almost anywhere in the world. They were using sat communications for AOG in the 60's.
By the look of them, these are Skype-for-Business Instant Messages, associated with Boeing’s Exchange system. IMs are archived in a folder inside Exchange, similarly to ordinary emails. It is likely—though not necessarily relevant—that this will be hosted in the Microsoft cloud (aka Office365), in which case a VPN would not be required for access to send such IMs.
Assuming they hadn’t been deleted—and Boeing’s deletion and retention schedules, if any, would be instructive here—recovering them would be straightforward for an Exchange admin with the right access rights. However, it’s not always as quick an activity as you might expect, and unlike email, individual IMs are not stored as separate messages but in ‘conversations’ (sometimes duplicated) which can complicate reassembling them back into a coherent sequence — perfectly possible, but not as quick as might be expected.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 21:08
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Originally Posted by MemberBerry
Wow. Accusations of fraud coming from the pilots of one of Boeing's largest customers... Not a good week for Boeing.
I assume there must be some substantial evidence behind this, or it's a "see you in court" job from Boeing.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 21:20
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Originally Posted by aterpster
The new FAA Administrator should revoke the type certificate for this airplane, and direct Boeing to re-certify the airplane.
if that’s required Aterpster, it will never fly again. There is too much grandfathered that is non compliant with today’s regs.
it surprises me that an analysis of what is non compliant hasn’t come out yet in detail. But that’s not really a MCAS issue.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 21:22
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According to the Seattle Times the transcripts were given by Boeing to the Grand Jury investigation one month Before the second crash.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 21:31
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Originally Posted by RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike

By the look of them, these are Skype-for-Business Instant Messages, associated with Boeing’s Exchange system. IMs are archived in a folder inside Exchange, similarly to ordinary emails. It is likely—though not necessarily relevant—that this will be hosted in the Microsoft cloud (aka Office365), in which case a VPN would not be required for access to send such IMs.
Assuming they hadn’t been deleted—and Boeing’s deletion and retention schedules, if any, would be instructive here—recovering them would be straightforward for an Exchange admin with the right access rights. However, it’s not always as quick an activity as you might expect, and unlike email, individual IMs are not stored as separate messages but in ‘conversations’ (sometimes duplicated) which can complicate reassembling them back into a coherent sequence — perfectly possible, but not as quick as might be expected.

My point was and is that recovery of 'electronic' messages used with/from a boeing " email " such as joedoe at boe888 c88 address ( actual address is in pdf downloaded but cannot be posted here ) from anywhere in the world is a near trivial exercise nowdays what with vpn like systems. Sorting and linking may take a bit of time- measured in at most hours/days, not weeks or months. And if one uses boeing ' email ' or equivalent to send to your home address, boeing can easily add pki or equivalent certificates to your system- for better or worse - and not always with your knowledge or approval.

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Old 19th Oct 2019, 21:48
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded
A composer, as anyone familiar with his famous Wind Symphony and the remarkable Fantasia for Fluids would know.
Oh Danny B- the pipes the pipes are blowing . . . from nose to tail . . . .above the mountain side ..

Last edited by Grebe; 19th Oct 2019 at 21:59.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 22:10
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Originally Posted by tubby linton
According to the Seattle Times the transcripts were given by Boeing to the Grand Jury investigation one month Before the second crash.
Right, and not provided to the FAA until a couple of days ago. That's a really damning pair of events.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 23:48
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Originally Posted by Grebe
"So far we where told that MCAS was initially designed to work only at very low speeds"

Nope just the opposite - at near cruise at altitude and a steep bank ' windup' turn at edge of normal- extreme flight envelope

Go look up satguru stuff or seattle times

Thats why only .6 degrees change in stab was needed. But at low speeds, they needed more deflection- changed it by a factor of 4- never notified FAA re the 2.4 degree whack.
Thank you, that is interesting. So it was just the other way around. That also makes more sense with regards to the need to extend MCAS authority.
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