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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

Old 17th Oct 2019, 21:09
  #3121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BARKINGMAD
Nevillestyke, was that the Foolow, Derbyshire accident in 1956?

Regardless I’m sorry to hear you lost a relative in a ‘Shack’ accident, I hope my posting has not caused distress.
No, no distress at all. It happened just before I was born but I knew his father for many years. I've still got an 8mm colour home movie reel somewhere, which Roy filmed, of his training in Canada, on Ansons. I don't think that my father ever got the story quite right (he was not a pilot) as he seemed to describe the accident as an inverted CFIT in bad visibility, IIRC.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 01:21
  #3122 (permalink)  
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Pitot tube:
"It's a slender tube that has two holes on it. The front hole is placed in the airstream to measure what's called the stagnation pressure. The side hole measures the static pressure. By measuring the difference between these pressures, you get the dynamic pressure, which can be used to calculate airspeed".
To pick a nit: The above would be a pitot/static tube, mostly used on small aircraft. In larger aircraft the little hole in the side is a drain, the pressure loss from that is allowed for. The static measurement hole is in a flat plate, a large and very well engineered sensor.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 03:14
  #3123 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets
To pick a nit: The above would be a pitot/static tube, mostly used on small aircraft. In larger aircraft the little hole in the side is a drain, the pressure loss from that is allowed for. The static measurement hole is in a flat plate, a large and very well engineered sensor.
Yes indeed.
The poster referred to "wind speed" but pressure is really what is measured here so I wanted to show a basic example of the pitot static system. Don't know who fly and who are SLF on this forum.
The pitot system is also fed into the ADC's where static pressure is provided by the static ports around the fuselage. Just like my 747-400.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 15:35
  #3124 (permalink)  
 
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CNN are reporting final testing of the MCAS upgrade by US and foreign line pilots ‘on a Boeing simulator in Seattle’ in November, followed by a Certification flight.

Does this simulator accurately reproduce loads on the trim wheel or is it the eCab?
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 16:18
  #3125 (permalink)  
 
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The CNN article insinuates that a few simulator flights by invited pilots and single test flight by the FAA will get the Max back into the air. CNN does not mention that while these activities may be necessary, they are by no means sufficient. EASA has already declared they will test-fly the real thing on their own. No mention about changes in crew training requirements, no mention about trim problems and no mention about other certification issues. Sounds a bit like whistling in the dark from Boeing in advance of next week 3rd quarter financial results presentation which is probably producing stern looks from the rating guys at Moodys, Fitch et altera.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 16:47
  #3126 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/18/boei...t-737-max.html
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 17:02
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Originally Posted by clearedtocross
No mention about changes in crew training requirements, no mention about trim problems and no mention about other certification issues.
It does say that the SIM tests are to help determine required training updates.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/polit...tor/index.html
3rd paragraph:
and is intended to help regulators determine what sort of pilot training will be necessary before the plane flies again

They also mention that there have been ongoing tests by airline pilots, something I referenced earlier but still can't find the article again
Airline pilots have already been flying in the simulator with the new software as Boeing engineers were working through the updates. Those tests were to observe pilots and determine if the assumptions engineers were making along the way about how the pilots would respond and interact to the automation of the flight control system was the same as they anticipated.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 17:04
  #3128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by steamchicken
Anyone have more info on what those messages supposedly contain?
All I see is
"suggest that employees misled the FAA about a key safety system on the 737 Max"
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 17:35
  #3129 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ST Dog
Anyone have more info on what those messages supposedly contain?
From Reuters:

Exclusive: Boeing 2016 internal messages suggest employees may have misled FAA on 737 MAX - sources
David Shepardson

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) turned over instant messages from 2016 between two employees that suggest the airplane maker may have misled the Federal Aviation Administration about a key safety system on the grounded 737 MAX, sources briefed on the matter said.

The FAA confirmed Friday that Boeing told it a day earlier about internal messages it had discovered “some months ago” that characterize “certain communications with the FAA during the original certification of the 737 MAX in 2016.”

The FAA said it found the messages “concerning” and “is reviewing this information to determine what action is appropriate.” It prompted a letter from FAA Administrator Steve Dickson to Boeing Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg demanding an “immediate” explanation for the delay in turning over the documents.


Sources told Reuters the Boeing internal messages raised questions about the performance of the so-called MCAS anti-stall system that has been tied to the two fatal crashes in five months.

The messages are between the MAX’s then-chief technical pilot and another Boeing pilot, the sources said, and raised questions about the MCAS’s performance in the simulator. The pilot has since left Boeing. Boeing said in a statement the company “brought to the Committee’s attention a document containing statements by a former Boeing employee."

One of the messages said the Boeing pilot had 'basically lied' to regulators but added in parenthesis it was '(unknowingly).' Boeing is revising the 737 MAX software to add more safeguards and require the MCAS system to receive input from two key sensors.

The FAA reiterated that it is “following a thorough process, not a prescribed timeline, for returning the Boeing 737 MAX to passenger service. The agency will lift the grounding order only after we have determined the aircraft is safe."

Earlier this week, Southwest Airlines Co (LUV.N) delayed the return of the plane to its schedule until February. Separately, the U.S. Senate Commerce Committee confirmed it will question Muilenburg at an Oct. 29 hearing, one day before a House of Representatives panel is scheduled to question him.

Boeing shares fell 3.5% after the Reuters report, helping to drag down the Dow Jones industrial average .DJI to a session low.

Reporting by David Shepardson; Editing by Richard Chang




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Old 18th Oct 2019, 18:07
  #3130 (permalink)  
 
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From Reuters, 18th Oct 2019

The messages are between the MAX’s then-chief technical pilot, Mark Forkner, and another Boeing pilot, the sources said, and raised questions about the MCAS’s performance in the simulator in which he said it was “running rampant.”
Forkner said in one text message, “I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly).”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN1WX25G

JAS
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 18:30
  #3131 (permalink)  
 
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The messages are between the MAX’s then-chief technical pilot, Mark Forkner, and another Boeing pilot, the sources said, and raised questions about the MCAS’s performance in the simulator in which he said it was “running rampant.”
For non-native readers it may be useful to explain the meaning of “running rampant”: To go unchecked or without control; to be wild or excessive.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/run_rampant

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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:06
  #3132 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Plumb Bob
For non-native readers it may be useful to explain the meaning of “running rampant”: To go unchecked or without control; to be wild or excessive.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/run_rampant
If it turns out that B actually knew that MCAS could "run rampant," the ongoing criminal investigation, about which we have heard very little, may turn out to be a real problem for the company and some individuals.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:07
  #3133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Just a spotter
This is the employee who pled the 5th some months ago?
I can see why
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:26
  #3134 (permalink)  
 
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NY Times version (may be paywalled). See: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/b...t-message.html
“This is the smoking gun,” Representative Peter DeFazio, Democrat of Oregon, said in an interview. “This is no longer just a regulatory failure and a culture failure. It’s starting to look like criminal misconduct.”
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:29
  #3135 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Hawker400
This [Forkner] is the employee who pled the 5th some months ago?
I can see why
Yes, Forkner invoked the privilege in response to a grand jury subpoena for documents, according to an early September story in the Seattle Times. If the feds can't get the documents more easily some other way, it's a good bet that they will grant Forkner (at least limited) immunity, which would force him to turn them over. That may already have happened.

Forkner's cooperation is probably much more valuable to the investigation than any personal wrongdoing he could be charged wit.

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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:38
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded

Forkner's cooperation is probably much more valuable to the investigation than any personal wrongdoing he could be charged wit.
The (unknowingly) makes me sympathize with him in part. While not disclosing that information at the time is negligence at best and criminal at worst, he was undoubtedly pressured into that position. Fully agree with your statement.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:38
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Boeing staff messaged about 737 Max issue in 2016

In documents provided by Boeing to lawmakers, a pilot wrote that he had run into unexpected trouble during tests.

He said he had "basically lied to the regulators [unknowingly]".
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50101766
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:42
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Originally Posted by Hawker400
The (unknowingly) part makes me sympathize with him in part. While not disclosing that information at the time is negligence at best and criminal at worst, he was undoubtedly pressured into that position.
If his lawyer's statement is accurate, Forkner apparently thought, when he "basically lied" to the regulator, that the "rampant" MCAS he experienced was a sim problem. Later, when he told the colleague about the "lie," he seems to have concluded that the issue was with MCAS itself.

From the Times story:

A lawyer for Mr. Forkner played down the importance of the messages, saying Mr. Forkner was talking about issues with the simulator.

“If you read the whole chat, it is obvious that there was no ‘lie’ and the simulator program was not operating properly,” the lawyer, David Gerger, said in a statement. “Based on what he was told, Mark thought the plane was safe, and the simulator would be fixed.”
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:54
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Original email exchange here:
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...s-development/


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Old 18th Oct 2019, 19:57
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This is Forkner’s “text” conversation.
https://graphics.reuters.com/BOEING-...20Document.pdf

extract:

“Mark Forkner 6:50 PM:
Oh shocker alerT!
MCAS is now active down to M .2
It's running rampant in the sim on me
at least that's what Vince thinks is happening

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
Oh great, that means we have to update the speed trim descritption in vol 2

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
so I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
it wasnt a lie, no one told us that was the case

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
I'm levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy
I'm like, WHAT?

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:52 PM:
that's what i saw on sim one, but on approach”

Last edited by joe_bloggs; 18th Oct 2019 at 20:14.
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