MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures
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Last edited by Drc40; 12th Nov 2019 at 21:32. Reason: Wrong
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It's probably also worth noting that shareholder equity (the difference between total assets and total liabilities) was approaching negative $4 Billion.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...g/total-assets
The stock price hasn't come close to crashing -- at least, not so far -- although it is substantially below the 52-week high. I think there are plenty of investors who believe that Boeing is basically invulnerable.
At the end of the third quarter of this year, they had almost $11 Billion in cash on hand.
It's probably also worth noting that shareholder equity (the difference between total assets and total liabilities) was approaching negative $4 Billion.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...g/total-assets
The stock price hasn't come close to crashing -- at least, not so far -- although it is substantially below the 52-week high. I think there are plenty of investors who believe that Boeing is basically invulnerable.
It's probably also worth noting that shareholder equity (the difference between total assets and total liabilities) was approaching negative $4 Billion.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...g/total-assets
The stock price hasn't come close to crashing -- at least, not so far -- although it is substantially below the 52-week high. I think there are plenty of investors who believe that Boeing is basically invulnerable.
From memory it is also the suppliers that have been forced by Boeing to take financial pain - extended payment terms and requirement of higher stock ready for production increase.
If one or two big suppliers fold, then Boeing will be forced to "create" new "compliant" ones and get fast FAA approval for them to keep the all important line moving - something the Bean Counters never considered a problem before and I still expect they don't.
As for the aircraft, there are about a half a dozen very serious points that Boeing and the FAA seem not to have been transparent on during the re-certification process. These range from the clarification of the aircraft actions in the parts of the envelope that MCAS was required and that's relation to stall, to the manual trim wheel effectiveness. There should have been very clear answers to these main points long ago not lip service and silence.
Digression Alert. Way back at #3614 and 3615 there's passing reference to Nevil Shute Norway. He co-designed R100 airship and the Airspeed Oxford, an important aircraft of WW2. In his autobiography Slide Rule he admits to keeping Airspeed afloat by dubious valuation of part-built aircraft. "I was acquiring a reputation for reckless and unscrupulous optimism that bordered on dishonesty". Likewise Boeing?
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No, but if they discovered a discrepancy, they could turn the whole system off for the rest of the flight. Although this is not ideal, and a tri-voting system would be better, turning the system off WOULD have saved these two aircraft and all their passengers and crew.
In fact, all they needed was two vanes feeding information to one computer, to discover if there was a vane fault. But Boeing could not even be bothered to do that..!!
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No, but if they discovered a discrepancy, they could turn the whole system off for the rest of the flight. Although this is not ideal, and a tri-voting system would be better, turning the system off WOULD have saved these two aircraft and all their passengers and crew.
In fact, all they needed was two vanes feeding information to one computer, to discover if there was a vane fault. But Boeing could not even be bothered to do that..!!
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A recent set a questions put to me during a dinner party by people having no direct interest or knowledge about aviation , raises the underlying point still waiting below all the technical and regulatory issues.
Will the general public have confidence in using the Max again when it is released ?
.I was surprised of their reactions, as quite a few of the guests in that dinner said they will not fly a Max and some said just booked their forthcoming holidays on a specific airline that they are sure does not has Max . I wonder if this will disappear soon when ticket prices are again going to be the deciding factor.
Not seen much discussion yet on this , although I suspect airlines have some indication via their booking systems .
Will the general public have confidence in using the Max again when it is released ?
.I was surprised of their reactions, as quite a few of the guests in that dinner said they will not fly a Max and some said just booked their forthcoming holidays on a specific airline that they are sure does not has Max . I wonder if this will disappear soon when ticket prices are again going to be the deciding factor.
Not seen much discussion yet on this , although I suspect airlines have some indication via their booking systems .
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It will probably take much transparency to demonstrate that the aircraft is now safe to fly. If it happens to be safe, that is..
Salute!
@ Silver and Old......
Back when the Earth was still cooling our "archaic" fully electronic FBW system in the Viper had 4 computers and 4 piezzo doofers to sense our pitch and roll commands. The logic was to keep one computer as a spare and use three computers to blend the two AoA cones and the pneumatic hemisperical probe pressures plus two sideslip/static ports. If we got to only two computers the general rule was to use the most benign value, and this could be implemented easily on the MAX, huh?
Our only problem happened when the fault detection system failed, so we had a few prangs when the system used the dead computer and controls went to neutral ! Wahooo! 22 negative gees, but two outta first three troops made it out. Needless to say, we changed the logic and also improved the power supplies to the computers.
Gums sends...
@ Silver and Old......
Back when the Earth was still cooling our "archaic" fully electronic FBW system in the Viper had 4 computers and 4 piezzo doofers to sense our pitch and roll commands. The logic was to keep one computer as a spare and use three computers to blend the two AoA cones and the pneumatic hemisperical probe pressures plus two sideslip/static ports. If we got to only two computers the general rule was to use the most benign value, and this could be implemented easily on the MAX, huh?
Our only problem happened when the fault detection system failed, so we had a few prangs when the system used the dead computer and controls went to neutral ! Wahooo! 22 negative gees, but two outta first three troops made it out. Needless to say, we changed the logic and also improved the power supplies to the computers.
Gums sends...
gums, et al,
We wait for information about the modifications.
A likely scenario is a monitored dual system using the existing FCCs - two required for dispatch. If MCAS shuts down in flight, then providing the stability shortfall is minor, the flight could be continued.
However, more serious stability discrepancies / stall characteristics, would either require a new software architecture using three sensors, or as rumoured a third ‘synthetic’ source of AoA which would enable continued flight or diversion.
Manual flight training would be required to experience the stability differences with MCAS unavailable.
For the trim runaway aspect, stick cutouts, trim alerting, and crew procedure should be sufficient, but this could depend on any differences between the MAX and NG. Training would be essential for quick identification and action, likely stick force, and or ease of trim opertation.
The high workload / distraction problems at or after takeoff due to multiple alerts could be tolerated, but again with training; although the stick shake implications - stall or not stalled, could add a few changes.
We wait for information about the modifications.
A likely scenario is a monitored dual system using the existing FCCs - two required for dispatch. If MCAS shuts down in flight, then providing the stability shortfall is minor, the flight could be continued.
However, more serious stability discrepancies / stall characteristics, would either require a new software architecture using three sensors, or as rumoured a third ‘synthetic’ source of AoA which would enable continued flight or diversion.
Manual flight training would be required to experience the stability differences with MCAS unavailable.
For the trim runaway aspect, stick cutouts, trim alerting, and crew procedure should be sufficient, but this could depend on any differences between the MAX and NG. Training would be essential for quick identification and action, likely stick force, and or ease of trim opertation.
The high workload / distraction problems at or after takeoff due to multiple alerts could be tolerated, but again with training; although the stick shake implications - stall or not stalled, could add a few changes.
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A recent set a questions put to me during a dinner party by people having no direct interest or knowledge about aviation , raises the underlying point still waiting below all the technical and regulatory issues.
Will the general public have confidence in using the Max again when it is released ?
.I was surprised of their reactions, as quite a few of the guests in that dinner said they will not fly a Max and some said just booked their forthcoming holidays on a specific airline that they are sure does not has Max . I wonder if this will disappear soon when ticket prices are again going to be the deciding factor.
Not seen much discussion yet on this , although I suspect airlines have some indication via their booking systems .
Will the general public have confidence in using the Max again when it is released ?
.I was surprised of their reactions, as quite a few of the guests in that dinner said they will not fly a Max and some said just booked their forthcoming holidays on a specific airline that they are sure does not has Max . I wonder if this will disappear soon when ticket prices are again going to be the deciding factor.
Not seen much discussion yet on this , although I suspect airlines have some indication via their booking systems .
It was also suggested at the time that the passenger roster on that first flight should solely consist of Boeing top rank and their families although this did not sit easy with some posters.
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If I were the FAA (or any regulator) I would want to see a full path analysis of the code, not just the 'happy path' it usually takes but all possibilities. Code coverage in all scenarios. We also know of course the 20/80 rule: that is the processor will be running 20% of the code 80% of the time. I did this test analysis for an app that was basically just an inventory of a portfolio of property contents FGS. It takes a lot of effort and I would be very surprised if anything like that has happened in this case in the time available.
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But if nothing is published, how can we trust Boeing and the FAA as to the resolution of the issues ?
How will they convince the flying public ?
"Believe us, this time we did our job, everything's fine, you can trust us" ?
I weep for the loss of corporate respect and perceived infallibility of the once-inimitable Boeing Company. Oh, how I thrilled for my first flight aboard a 707. Then a 720, then the lovely, steep approach 727! I marveled at the 747 - how could something so huge fly, and fly so fast? Those were the days!
Now, I must admit, I would think long and hard about boarding a 737 Max. In my mind, I do not believe that Boeing can ever regain its untarnished reputation. They made the mistake of swapping truth for money. As greedy as the capitalistic society of the United States may be, that transaction is still frowned upon.
I think back to the days of the DeHavilland DH 106 Comet and the Lockheed L-188 Electra. Our family flew from New York to Atlanta on an Eastern Airlines Electra in 1961. I recall my father reassuring us that she was a great bird and not to worry. Though but twelve years of age at the time, I remember how quiet the passenger cabin was: many passengers were staring at the wing, waiting for an engine to go into "whirl mode", separating the wing from the fuselage.
I don't have any memory or data of the psychology-driven passenger avoidance of the Comet or Electra once those aircraft first started to come apart, but both types were withdrawn from fare service fairly shortly thereafter, though the Electra continued on for a number of years on routes flown by non-American carriers. I wonder what might become of the 737 Max, or, for that matter, the Boeing Company.
Such a shame!
- Ed
Now, I must admit, I would think long and hard about boarding a 737 Max. In my mind, I do not believe that Boeing can ever regain its untarnished reputation. They made the mistake of swapping truth for money. As greedy as the capitalistic society of the United States may be, that transaction is still frowned upon.
I think back to the days of the DeHavilland DH 106 Comet and the Lockheed L-188 Electra. Our family flew from New York to Atlanta on an Eastern Airlines Electra in 1961. I recall my father reassuring us that she was a great bird and not to worry. Though but twelve years of age at the time, I remember how quiet the passenger cabin was: many passengers were staring at the wing, waiting for an engine to go into "whirl mode", separating the wing from the fuselage.
I don't have any memory or data of the psychology-driven passenger avoidance of the Comet or Electra once those aircraft first started to come apart, but both types were withdrawn from fare service fairly shortly thereafter, though the Electra continued on for a number of years on routes flown by non-American carriers. I wonder what might become of the 737 Max, or, for that matter, the Boeing Company.
Such a shame!
- Ed
A recent set a questions put to me during a dinner party by people having no direct interest or knowledge about aviation , raises the underlying point still waiting below all the technical and regulatory issues.
Will the general public have confidence in using the Max again when it is released ?
.I was surprised of their reactions, as quite a few of the guests in that dinner said they will not fly a Max and some said just booked their forthcoming holidays on a specific airline that they are sure does not has Max . I wonder if this will disappear soon when ticket prices are again going to be the deciding factor.
Not seen much discussion yet on this , although I suspect airlines have some indication via their booking systems .
Will the general public have confidence in using the Max again when it is released ?
.I was surprised of their reactions, as quite a few of the guests in that dinner said they will not fly a Max and some said just booked their forthcoming holidays on a specific airline that they are sure does not has Max . I wonder if this will disappear soon when ticket prices are again going to be the deciding factor.
Not seen much discussion yet on this , although I suspect airlines have some indication via their booking systems .