MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ng-11573421213
Boeing Seeks Blessing to Deliver 737 MAX as FAA Reviews Pilot Training
Plane maker discussing whether it can deliver aircraft before pilots have undergone required training
By Andrew Tangel and Andy Pasztor
Nov. 10, 2019 4:26 pm ET
Boeing Co. hopes to deliver 737 MAX aircraft to airlines before the end of the year even if regulators haven’t approved related pilot training, people familiar with the matter said.
As the plane maker prepares for the Federal Aviation Administration to lift a MAX flight ban as soon as December, Boeing is discussing with regulators whether it can deliver the aircraft before airline pilots have undergone required training needed to fly the jet, these people said. The emerging plan comes amid increasing signs there will be lag between an FAA’s lifting of a flight ban and its approval of new training for pilots.
Delivering aircraft before all the regulatory approvals are complete would relieve pressure on the manufacturer as it contemplates further cutting or halting MAX production amid the protracted grounding. It would also help airlines that have lost hundreds of millions of dollars and disrupted passengers’ travel plans. Under the plan, airlines still wouldn’t fly the plane with passengers until the training occurs.
“Subject to strict regulatory approval, we continue to complete key milestones that put us on a path to certification of the MAX in December, with training approved in January, paving the way for the safe return of the MAX to commercial service,” a Boeing spokesman said.
The FAA’s order is expected as soon as mid-December, barring any further engineering and testing delays that have kept the MAX fleet grounded since a second 737 MAX crashed in Ethiopia in March, the people familiar with the matter said. That crash followed another accident in Indonesia less than five months earlier; in all, 346 people died.
Last week, Boeing cleared a key hurdle following a series of certification simulator tests with the FAA, a person familiar with the process said.
But related pilot training isn’t expected to be formally approved until a number of weeks after the FAA certifies the MAX as safe for flight, following a public comment period, the people said. That would effectively prevent airlines from carrying passengers until January at the earliest under the current expected timing.
Airlines have been anxious for Boeing to resume deliveries of the MAX and want to avoid bottlenecks and long waits once the plane is cleared for service.
Southwest Airlines Co. and American Airlines Group Inc. said last week they were taking the MAX out of their schedules through early March, longer than previously signaled. Carriers have a series of steps to prepare their aircraft to carry passengers. Not only do they need to take them out of storage, but they are also planning their own demonstration flights and public-relations campaigns.
Southwest and American want to train all their 737 pilots before adding the MAX back into schedules to avoid scheduling issues that could arise if only some pilots are able to operate the plane.
Since the spring, both FAA and Boeing officials sketched out a process that envisioned MAX deliveries resuming roughly simultaneously with completion of pilot-training efforts. Those earlier scenarios didn’t take into account additional weeks needed for regulators to complete training requirements and for airlines to implement those changes.
As the end of the year approaches, Boeing is running low on parking spots for the 737 MAX as finished planes pile up at locations in the Puget Sound area. Boeing has been producing the 737 at a rate of 42 planes a month at its Renton, Wash., factory since the aircraft’s grounding, down from a previous monthly rate of 52. The manufacturer has stored planes at airfields in the Pacific Northwest and even put some in employee parking spaces.
While Boeing has about two months’ of parking spots available, the plane maker is identifying other storage space if needed, the person familiar with the process said.
Boeing Chairman Dave Calhoun has said the FAA’s ungrounding order would start a longer process to fully return the MAX to service around the world, an effort expected to last into early 2021.
—Alison Sider contributed to this article.
Write to Andrew Tangel at [email protected] and Andy Pasztor at [email protected]
Plane maker discussing whether it can deliver aircraft before pilots have undergone required training
By Andrew Tangel and Andy Pasztor
Nov. 10, 2019 4:26 pm ET
Boeing Co. hopes to deliver 737 MAX aircraft to airlines before the end of the year even if regulators haven’t approved related pilot training, people familiar with the matter said.
As the plane maker prepares for the Federal Aviation Administration to lift a MAX flight ban as soon as December, Boeing is discussing with regulators whether it can deliver the aircraft before airline pilots have undergone required training needed to fly the jet, these people said. The emerging plan comes amid increasing signs there will be lag between an FAA’s lifting of a flight ban and its approval of new training for pilots.
Delivering aircraft before all the regulatory approvals are complete would relieve pressure on the manufacturer as it contemplates further cutting or halting MAX production amid the protracted grounding. It would also help airlines that have lost hundreds of millions of dollars and disrupted passengers’ travel plans. Under the plan, airlines still wouldn’t fly the plane with passengers until the training occurs.
“Subject to strict regulatory approval, we continue to complete key milestones that put us on a path to certification of the MAX in December, with training approved in January, paving the way for the safe return of the MAX to commercial service,” a Boeing spokesman said.
The FAA’s order is expected as soon as mid-December, barring any further engineering and testing delays that have kept the MAX fleet grounded since a second 737 MAX crashed in Ethiopia in March, the people familiar with the matter said. That crash followed another accident in Indonesia less than five months earlier; in all, 346 people died.
Last week, Boeing cleared a key hurdle following a series of certification simulator tests with the FAA, a person familiar with the process said.
But related pilot training isn’t expected to be formally approved until a number of weeks after the FAA certifies the MAX as safe for flight, following a public comment period, the people said. That would effectively prevent airlines from carrying passengers until January at the earliest under the current expected timing.
Airlines have been anxious for Boeing to resume deliveries of the MAX and want to avoid bottlenecks and long waits once the plane is cleared for service.
Southwest Airlines Co. and American Airlines Group Inc. said last week they were taking the MAX out of their schedules through early March, longer than previously signaled. Carriers have a series of steps to prepare their aircraft to carry passengers. Not only do they need to take them out of storage, but they are also planning their own demonstration flights and public-relations campaigns.
Southwest and American want to train all their 737 pilots before adding the MAX back into schedules to avoid scheduling issues that could arise if only some pilots are able to operate the plane.
Since the spring, both FAA and Boeing officials sketched out a process that envisioned MAX deliveries resuming roughly simultaneously with completion of pilot-training efforts. Those earlier scenarios didn’t take into account additional weeks needed for regulators to complete training requirements and for airlines to implement those changes.
As the end of the year approaches, Boeing is running low on parking spots for the 737 MAX as finished planes pile up at locations in the Puget Sound area. Boeing has been producing the 737 at a rate of 42 planes a month at its Renton, Wash., factory since the aircraft’s grounding, down from a previous monthly rate of 52. The manufacturer has stored planes at airfields in the Pacific Northwest and even put some in employee parking spaces.
While Boeing has about two months’ of parking spots available, the plane maker is identifying other storage space if needed, the person familiar with the process said.
Boeing Chairman Dave Calhoun has said the FAA’s ungrounding order would start a longer process to fully return the MAX to service around the world, an effort expected to last into early 2021.
—Alison Sider contributed to this article.
Write to Andrew Tangel at [email protected] and Andy Pasztor at [email protected]
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Long form story on the first MAX lawsuit
For those not familiar with the organization, ProPublica is a nonprofit engaged in "investigative reporting in the public interest." The board chair was managing editor at WSJ, they've won several Pulitzers, and so on.
This piece focuses on the lawsuit and lobbying undertaken by the family of the young Ralph Nader relative who died in the ET302 crash:
I Will Never Let Boeing Forget Her
This piece focuses on the lawsuit and lobbying undertaken by the family of the young Ralph Nader relative who died in the ET302 crash:
I Will Never Let Boeing Forget Her
Salute!
Forgive me, but I am having a hard time with requiring hours of "training" for pilots to fly the MAX with the new MCAS, or even the old MCAS.
Seems to this old fart that letting all of we pilots know that 1) MCAS is installed and 2) is supposed to trim nose down when at a few degrees AoA below the stall and 3) it might trigger shortly after takeoff or even in the holding pattern if the AoA sensors go weird, and 4) turn off the trim and trouble shoot while returning to base if you wish.
I would personally like to fly the real plane without MCAS so I could feel the light back force, but I realize that such training might cost $$$$. Hell, I would like to fly the thing up to a stall/stick shaker AoA just to see if there was wing rock, strong buffet, etc. telling me that I was pressing the envelope.
My feeling is that Boeing and FAA thot failure to activate was more important then nuisance and fatal activation when a single sensor went south.
Gums sends...
Forgive me, but I am having a hard time with requiring hours of "training" for pilots to fly the MAX with the new MCAS, or even the old MCAS.
Seems to this old fart that letting all of we pilots know that 1) MCAS is installed and 2) is supposed to trim nose down when at a few degrees AoA below the stall and 3) it might trigger shortly after takeoff or even in the holding pattern if the AoA sensors go weird, and 4) turn off the trim and trouble shoot while returning to base if you wish.
I would personally like to fly the real plane without MCAS so I could feel the light back force, but I realize that such training might cost $$$$. Hell, I would like to fly the thing up to a stall/stick shaker AoA just to see if there was wing rock, strong buffet, etc. telling me that I was pressing the envelope.
My feeling is that Boeing and FAA thot failure to activate was more important then nuisance and fatal activation when a single sensor went south.
Gums sends...
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Another date-another software only fix - place your bets
Boeing says FAA’s OK for 737 MAX should come next month, but commercial flights will take longer
Nov. 11, 2019 at 11:29 am
Dominic Gates By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter
Boeing said Monday it expects the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to clear the grounded 737 MAX as safe to fly again in late December, but the FAA likely won’t finalize a new MAX pilot training regimen until January.
That means Boeing may be able to resume deliveries of the jet to airlines before year end, but that the airplanes won’t be cleared to carry passengers until as much as a month later.
The airlines need at least a further month to get the planes out of mothballs and their pilots trained. This explains why both American and Southwest on Friday took the MAX out of their flight schedules until early March.
Boeing also laid out the specific milestones that must be completed ahead of the MAX’s return to service, and said the first was completed last week. That clear view of the limited steps remaining boosted Boeing stock by more than $17, or nearly 5%, in mid-day trading Monday. nearly $15 in early trading Monday, up to $365 per share.
Once the U.S. airlines have full clearance to fly the MAX, they will need 30 to 40 days to get the planes ready and to put thousands of pilots through the training. They will then introduce the MAX only slowly into their schedules.
While it’s possible that the MAX’s return to service could slip further, omitting the MAX from flight schedules until March will provide certainty for passengers booking now for the early part of the busy spring break period.
Boeing said Monday that within the past week it has completed with the FAA an extensive evaluation of its new MAX software in its flight simulators in Seattle.
The software fix has two parts:
An upgrade to make safe the flight control system — the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) — that activated erroneously on the two crash flight in Indonesia and Ethiopia.
A change to the overall software architecture of the MAX so that its systems take data from both flight control computers on each flight, instead of only one as previously.
Boeing said the next steps are:
A separate, multiday simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload under various test conditions.
An FAA certification flight test.
Boeing’s final submital of its complete upgrade package to the FAA.
Another multiday simulator session with pilots representing air safety regulators from around the world to validate training requirements.
The FAA’s Flight Standardization Board will then release a report on the training requirements for a public comment period, followed by final approval of the training.
That last step is what’s now anticipated in late January, clearing the way for U.S. airlines to fly passengers on the MAX in early March.
Unlike American and Southwest, United — the third U.S. airline with MAXs grounded and awaiting clearance — has not yet updated its flight schedule.
Foreign regulators are expected to lag somewhat behind the FAA. Patrick Ky, executive director of the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), told trade magazine Aviation Week last month that his agency is likely to clear the MAX as safe to fly in January, a month after the FAA.
“The FAA and other regulatory authorities will ultimately determine return to service in each relevant jurisdiction,” Boeing said. “This may include a phased approach and timing may vary by jurisdiction.”
In a note to investors, Wall Street analyst Doug Harned of Bernstein Research said Boeing’s MAX deliveries in December “will most likely be on paper and not necessarily the physical transfer of the asset.”
Harned said that once the FAA and EASA clear the MAX to fly, most other foreign regulators, including Turkey, India, and the United Arab Emirates, will follow quickly. “China and Russia, however, may take longer,” he wrote.
Nov. 11, 2019 at 11:29 am
Dominic Gates By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter
Boeing said Monday it expects the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to clear the grounded 737 MAX as safe to fly again in late December, but the FAA likely won’t finalize a new MAX pilot training regimen until January.
That means Boeing may be able to resume deliveries of the jet to airlines before year end, but that the airplanes won’t be cleared to carry passengers until as much as a month later.
The airlines need at least a further month to get the planes out of mothballs and their pilots trained. This explains why both American and Southwest on Friday took the MAX out of their flight schedules until early March.
Boeing also laid out the specific milestones that must be completed ahead of the MAX’s return to service, and said the first was completed last week. That clear view of the limited steps remaining boosted Boeing stock by more than $17, or nearly 5%, in mid-day trading Monday. nearly $15 in early trading Monday, up to $365 per share.
Once the U.S. airlines have full clearance to fly the MAX, they will need 30 to 40 days to get the planes ready and to put thousands of pilots through the training. They will then introduce the MAX only slowly into their schedules.
While it’s possible that the MAX’s return to service could slip further, omitting the MAX from flight schedules until March will provide certainty for passengers booking now for the early part of the busy spring break period.
Boeing said Monday that within the past week it has completed with the FAA an extensive evaluation of its new MAX software in its flight simulators in Seattle.
The software fix has two parts:
An upgrade to make safe the flight control system — the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) — that activated erroneously on the two crash flight in Indonesia and Ethiopia.
A change to the overall software architecture of the MAX so that its systems take data from both flight control computers on each flight, instead of only one as previously.
Boeing said the next steps are:
A separate, multiday simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload under various test conditions.
An FAA certification flight test.
Boeing’s final submital of its complete upgrade package to the FAA.
Another multiday simulator session with pilots representing air safety regulators from around the world to validate training requirements.
The FAA’s Flight Standardization Board will then release a report on the training requirements for a public comment period, followed by final approval of the training.
That last step is what’s now anticipated in late January, clearing the way for U.S. airlines to fly passengers on the MAX in early March.
Unlike American and Southwest, United — the third U.S. airline with MAXs grounded and awaiting clearance — has not yet updated its flight schedule.
Foreign regulators are expected to lag somewhat behind the FAA. Patrick Ky, executive director of the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), told trade magazine Aviation Week last month that his agency is likely to clear the MAX as safe to fly in January, a month after the FAA.
“The FAA and other regulatory authorities will ultimately determine return to service in each relevant jurisdiction,” Boeing said. “This may include a phased approach and timing may vary by jurisdiction.”
In a note to investors, Wall Street analyst Doug Harned of Bernstein Research said Boeing’s MAX deliveries in December “will most likely be on paper and not necessarily the physical transfer of the asset.”
Harned said that once the FAA and EASA clear the MAX to fly, most other foreign regulators, including Turkey, India, and the United Arab Emirates, will follow quickly. “China and Russia, however, may take longer,” he wrote.
Perhaps it is about time for Boeing to seriously consider licencing the MC21 design. It is ready to go, the most modern in the 737 class, and definitely superior to the max . It would keep their factories going and workers employed and give them 4 years to come out with an industry leading game changing replacement to the Max.
Salute!
Forgive me, but I am having a hard time with requiring hours of "training" for pilots to fly the MAX with the new MCAS, or even the old MCAS.
Seems to this old fart that letting all of we pilots know that 1) MCAS is installed and 2) is supposed to trim nose down when at a few degrees AoA below the stall and 3) it might trigger shortly after takeoff or even in the holding pattern if the AoA sensors go weird, and 4) turn off the trim and trouble shoot while returning to base if you wish.
I would personally like to fly the real plane without MCAS so I could feel the light back force, but I realize that such training might cost $$$$. Hell, I would like to fly the thing up to a stall/stick shaker AoA just to see if there was wing rock, strong buffet, etc. telling me that I was pressing the envelope.
My feeling is that Boeing and FAA thot failure to activate was more important then nuisance and fatal activation when a single sensor went south.
Gums sends...
Forgive me, but I am having a hard time with requiring hours of "training" for pilots to fly the MAX with the new MCAS, or even the old MCAS.
Seems to this old fart that letting all of we pilots know that 1) MCAS is installed and 2) is supposed to trim nose down when at a few degrees AoA below the stall and 3) it might trigger shortly after takeoff or even in the holding pattern if the AoA sensors go weird, and 4) turn off the trim and trouble shoot while returning to base if you wish.
I would personally like to fly the real plane without MCAS so I could feel the light back force, but I realize that such training might cost $$$$. Hell, I would like to fly the thing up to a stall/stick shaker AoA just to see if there was wing rock, strong buffet, etc. telling me that I was pressing the envelope.
My feeling is that Boeing and FAA thot failure to activate was more important then nuisance and fatal activation when a single sensor went south.
Gums sends...
On the face of it I would agree Gums, but, then the goal posts are being moved here as well. The community understands the system that was at the heart of the two accidents, but now we have a new, improved version, and presumably that removes the risks, however, it also potentially introduces new failure modes that have to be understood. To that end, a sound knowledge on the new system is important. Hopefully, the response is still exactly the same as it should have been, had the problem been recognised on the accident events. Recognition is key to dealing with the issue, as it has been since cavemen first discovered fire.
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- ET302 has shown that's not always the case,
- it came out that simulators did not (or did not even attempt) to realistically reproduce trim wheel efforts,
- more generally, the regulators have been forced to come to greater realization that ability to pass a simulator test does not accurately predict ability to handle the corresponding real-life situation.
Granted, this could apply to other planes, including the NG. But there is logic in putting an end to the "it worked fine for the NG, it will work well enough for the MAX" attitude. The planes are significantly different, and that attitude failed, badly, and with dire consequences.
Last edited by fgrieu; 12th Nov 2019 at 10:10.
It seems to me, and in answer to Gums point, that training MUST be offered to enable pilots to be able to distinguish 'correct' MCAS activation (allow auto trim to run to give stick forces per design) from 'incorrect' activation (diagnose after 3 seconds auto trim, retrim and then disconnect). That's going to be an interesting training package.
It seems to me, and in answer to Gums point, that training MUST be offered to enable pilots to be able to distinguish 'correct' MCAS activation (allow auto trim to run to give stick forces per design) from 'incorrect' activation (diagnose after 3 seconds auto trim, retrim and then disconnect). That's going to be an interesting training package.
Would require the "feel" MCAS is designed to fix in both high and low speed conditions, before hitting the cut outs FAST when that feel is then"not normal".
That is all edge of the envelope stuff, before things get BAD and what should save you - you need to know if to let it live, or kill it.
It will save you or you will kill the crowd!
Hardly a iPad course I think - even less when all these details are still secret as to when MCAS is "required".
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It seems to me, and in answer to Gums point, that training MUST be offered to enable pilots to be able to distinguish 'correct' MCAS activation (allow auto trim to run to give stick forces per design) from 'incorrect' activation (diagnose after 3 seconds auto trim, retrim and then disconnect). That's going to be an interesting training package.
But see the Seattle Times report posted by Grebe above (around #3925)....
"next steps are..."........
“A separate, multiday simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload under various test conditions.”
Simulator .sessions are not the place to "assess human factors and crew workload". That needs to be done in a user lab. Simulators are for (no-risk) training. There is nothing to prove they accurately reflect a physical design – or can compensate for a poor one. Nor do they facilitate design failure reporting and analysis.
Is this a design or a training issue? I believe that Gums says that it is design.
Last edited by Outofthefray; 13th Nov 2019 at 14:47. Reason: spelling + grammar
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Forget hind sight, we are passed that point, the whole world of aviation
pretty well knows all about it.
It's therefore now simple;
For pilots new to the Max...
Folks, Just in case you detect it's a bit nose heavy, remember your
instinctive check back on the column will not work, so use thumb switches as
required and be prepared to activate stab trim cut out switches, and continue
with manual trim if necesary. Ignore other distacting noises if they are
obviously not credible. ( Power plus attitude equals perfomance, rememenber)
The numerous test flights, ferry flights, etc. that are going on almost daily operate
exactly to this scenario, perfectly safely.
Allow the Max back into service right now if Flight/Maintenance crews are so briefed.
Set a time limit for design improvements, but lets just get on with it.
THERE WILL BE TIME AND SPACE LATER FOR BOEING AND IT'S PUPPET FAA
TO BE HELD ACCOUNT
pretty well knows all about it.
It's therefore now simple;
For pilots new to the Max...
Folks, Just in case you detect it's a bit nose heavy, remember your
instinctive check back on the column will not work, so use thumb switches as
required and be prepared to activate stab trim cut out switches, and continue
with manual trim if necesary. Ignore other distacting noises if they are
obviously not credible. ( Power plus attitude equals perfomance, rememenber)
The numerous test flights, ferry flights, etc. that are going on almost daily operate
exactly to this scenario, perfectly safely.
Allow the Max back into service right now if Flight/Maintenance crews are so briefed.
Set a time limit for design improvements, but lets just get on with it.
THERE WILL BE TIME AND SPACE LATER FOR BOEING AND IT'S PUPPET FAA
TO BE HELD ACCOUNT
Last edited by Deepinsider; 12th Nov 2019 at 11:49.
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Forget hind sight, we are passed that point, the whole world of aviation
pretty well knows all about it.
It's therefore now simple;
For pilots new to the Max...
Folks, Just in case you detect it's a bit nose heavy, remember your
instinctive check back on the column will not work . . .
pretty well knows all about it.
It's therefore now simple;
For pilots new to the Max...
Folks, Just in case you detect it's a bit nose heavy, remember your
instinctive check back on the column will not work . . .
. . . so use thumb switches as
required and be prepared to activate stab trim cut out switches, and continue
with manual trim if necesary.
required and be prepared to activate stab trim cut out switches, and continue
with manual trim if necesary.
Ignore other distacting noises if they are
obviously not credible.
obviously not credible.
The numerous test flights, ferry flights, etc. that are going on almost daily operate
exactly to this scenario, perfectly safely.
exactly to this scenario, perfectly safely.
Allow the Max back into service right now if Flight/Maintenance crews are so briefed.
Last edited by OldnGrounded; 12th Nov 2019 at 13:21. Reason: Formatting
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The numerous test flights, ferry flights, etc. that are going on almost daily operate
exactly to this scenario, perfectly safely.
exactly to this scenario, perfectly safely.
Refer to iPad training: "Identifying validity of flight deck cacophony in three seconds or less."
I wonder why no one thought of this solution in April?
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Deepinsider: Allow the Max back into service right now if Flight/Maintenance crews are so briefed.
Set a time limit for design improvements, but lets just get on with it.
THERE WILL BE TIME AND SPACE LATER FOR BOEING AND IT'S PUPPET FAA
TO BE HELD ACCOUNT
Set a time limit for design improvements, but lets just get on with it.
THERE WILL BE TIME AND SPACE LATER FOR BOEING AND IT'S PUPPET FAA
TO BE HELD ACCOUNT
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I guess this would help Boeing with their parking problem but will the airlines be willing to accept aircraft that they can not use and also find additional parking areas of their own until the aircraft can be put into service.?
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Boeing orders sink as customers opt to swap MAX
(Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) took 10 new plane orders last month, but saw some customers swapping the U.S. planemaker’s grounded 737 MAX planes in favor of more expensive wide-body planes as doubts lingered about the MAX’s return to service.
Net orders so far this year came to just 45 at the end of October, down from 56 in September, further widening the gap on sales this year with the company’s European rival Airbus SE (AIR.PA) which has now sold nearly 500 more planes.
After an accounting adjustment representing jets ordered in previous years, but now unlikely to be delivered, Boeing’s net total for orders this year sank to a negative 95 airplanes.
More
Net orders so far this year came to just 45 at the end of October, down from 56 in September, further widening the gap on sales this year with the company’s European rival Airbus SE (AIR.PA) which has now sold nearly 500 more planes.
After an accounting adjustment representing jets ordered in previous years, but now unlikely to be delivered, Boeing’s net total for orders this year sank to a negative 95 airplanes.
More