MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures
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If a gear change/derailleur appears beyond Boeing's engineering capacities, they may shop around at any bicycle vendor's ;-)
BTW, weren't the Wright brother bicycle makers ?
BTW, weren't the Wright brother bicycle makers ?
Wouldnt you think that perhaps by now, Boeing engineering would have evolved past the Wright Bros technology?
Someone please let Boeing engineers know the "fly by wire" does not mean actual wire strand cable....
oh crap, just realized that MCAS was part of the "FBW upgrade" portion of the MAX from the NG....
Maybe that is what is taking so long, Boeing has been trying to email the Wright Bros for the 'fix'....still waiting a response...
Fly Aiprt
t
Not sure what aviation experience you have. All aircraft reduce from Take Off power early in the climb out. Reducing power does not produce a massive Pitch Down event that you imply. Any small pitch effects are handled easily with no problems. I flew the B747 for many years, much higher thrust engines than the B737, any pitch moment with power changes were a non event in manual handling.
In your comment above, when the erroneous Stick Shaker event occurred it should have been quickly apparent ( normal take off and acceleration, Ground Speed readout on your primary flight instruments) and a perhaps delayed, but normal reduction of TOGA power, which would have made the crews day a lot easier. MCAS took no effect until flap retraction.
There we go again with the "lack of old fashioned airmanship"...
Care to elaborate on when, how, what for, the thrust reduction would have to occur ?
According to the Boeing and Airbus test pilots - I mean real pilots, not sim only "instructors" - retarding the throttle is one of the means of pitching down with underslung engines aircraft.
https://filedn.com/lfyhAtb1fbER0sfxD...%2006%3A98.pdf
Not sure pitching down was desirable at any moment of the take off/MCAS event.
Care to elaborate on when, how, what for, the thrust reduction would have to occur ?
According to the Boeing and Airbus test pilots - I mean real pilots, not sim only "instructors" - retarding the throttle is one of the means of pitching down with underslung engines aircraft.
https://filedn.com/lfyhAtb1fbER0sfxD...%2006%3A98.pdf
Not sure pitching down was desirable at any moment of the take off/MCAS event.
In your comment above, when the erroneous Stick Shaker event occurred it should have been quickly apparent ( normal take off and acceleration, Ground Speed readout on your primary flight instruments) and a perhaps delayed, but normal reduction of TOGA power, which would have made the crews day a lot easier. MCAS took no effect until flap retraction.
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If this thread devolves into a 'coulda/shouda/wouda' circle it will most likely get locked like the prior ones. Almost anything conceivable has been said multiple times on those.
To summarize, yes a fully aware and informed crew could have handled the issue, why they were not/did not is the ever spiralling argument.
Please review the threads to see if your opinion/knowledge is not covered..
To summarize, yes a fully aware and informed crew could have handled the issue, why they were not/did not is the ever spiralling argument.
Please review the threads to see if your opinion/knowledge is not covered..
Last edited by MurphyWasRight; 17th Jun 2019 at 22:08. Reason: typo
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This might fit and be certifiable,especially since most potential failures would result in a jam bypassing the reduction while still allowing wheel to be turned, with others covered by the locking means.
I think I have one year to file the patent papers from time of first publication
I think I have one year to file the patent papers from time of first publication
But the ratchet handle niche is available, feel free to apply ;-)
Last edited by Fly Aiprt; 17th Jun 2019 at 22:41. Reason: Typo
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If this thread devolves into a 'coulda/shouda/wouda' circle it will most likely get locked like the prior ones. Almost anything conceivable has been said multiple times on those.
To summarize, yes a fully aware and informed crew could have handled the issue, why they were nott/did not is the ever spiralling argument.
Please review the threads to see if your opinion/knowledge is not covered..
Duplicate post due to web issues, failed in attempt to delete it.
To summarize, yes a fully aware and informed crew could have handled the issue, why they were nott/did not is the ever spiralling argument.
Please review the threads to see if your opinion/knowledge is not covered..
Duplicate post due to web issues, failed in attempt to delete it.
Last edited by MurphyWasRight; 17th Jun 2019 at 22:57. Reason: duplicate
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This is interesting, could it be the elephant in the room ?
If the manual wheels are really hard to move under certain conditions, could it be that the fix would have to apply to all 737 models ?
If the manual wheels are really hard to move under certain conditions, could it be that the fix would have to apply to all 737 models ?
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As soon as you have to even contemplate "fixing" a system, on an allegely most advanced model, not to be replaced for 10 years, that has been in place for 50 years, your thought process is flawed
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t
Not sure what aviation experience you have. All aircraft reduce from Take Off power early in the climb out. Reducing power does not produce a massive Pitch Down event that you imply. Any small pitch effects are handled easily with no problems. I flew the B747 for many years, much higher thrust engines than the B737, any pitch moment with power changes were a non event in manual handling.
In your comment above, when the erroneous Stick Shaker event occurred it should have been quickly apparent ( normal take off and acceleration, Ground Speed readout on your primary flight instruments) and a perhaps delayed, but normal reduction of TOGA power, which would have made the crews day a lot easier. MCAS took no effect until flap retraction.
Not sure what aviation experience you have. All aircraft reduce from Take Off power early in the climb out. Reducing power does not produce a massive Pitch Down event that you imply. Any small pitch effects are handled easily with no problems. I flew the B747 for many years, much higher thrust engines than the B737, any pitch moment with power changes were a non event in manual handling.
In your comment above, when the erroneous Stick Shaker event occurred it should have been quickly apparent ( normal take off and acceleration, Ground Speed readout on your primary flight instruments) and a perhaps delayed, but normal reduction of TOGA power, which would have made the crews day a lot easier. MCAS took no effect until flap retraction.
The 737 max has substantial power/pitch coupling. It are also non event, aside from some trimming, when the flight controls are working correctly. In this case they weren’t.
Having said that I doubt that that was the reason the crew didn’t reduce the thrust. I find it unlikely that the crew had that much extra mental capacity. They were likely focused on the immediate stimulus and overlooked it. Read accident reports, watch simulator training, watch how you and your colleagues react in the real aircraft. The one big thing they all have in common is we are human.
The crews were human, they were bombarded with conflicting information from a system that the manufacturer didn’t provide sufficient documentation for, and weren’t adequately trained to deal with all possible failures.They should never have been put in that situation in the first place.
The accidents could have been avoided by the immediate application of a suitable procedure by crews who understood what was going on. I’m sure most MAX Pilots who were given a thorough ground school on the system and adequate training in the simulator would be able to recognise and deal with the problem. Add in a suitable method of failure warning and a tie breaker for dealing with erroneous inputs, then the accident chain is broken and the holes in the Swiss cheese won’t line up anymore.
The crew and passengers were let down by the entire system at every stage from manufacture to regulatory to training.
The accidents could have been avoided by the immediate application of a suitable procedure by crews who understood what was going on. I’m sure most MAX Pilots who were given a thorough ground school on the system and adequate training in the simulator would be able to recognise and deal with the problem. Add in a suitable method of failure warning and a tie breaker for dealing with erroneous inputs, then the accident chain is broken and the holes in the Swiss cheese won’t line up anymore.
The crew and passengers were let down by the entire system at every stage from manufacture to regulatory to training.
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The 737 max has substantial power/pitch coupling. It are also non event, aside from some trimming, when the flight controls are working correctly. In this case they weren’t.
Having said that I doubt that that was the reason the crew didn’t reduce the thrust. I find it unlikely that the crew had that much extra mental capacity. They were likely focused on the immediate stimulus and overlooked it. Read accident reports, watch simulator training, watch how you and your colleagues react in the real aircraft. The one big thing they all have in common is we are human.
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Yes, indeed. MAX pilots "who were given a thorough ground school on the system and adequately training on the simulator" ? Which pilots would these be ? Boeing Test Pilots ?. I read on this thread that most line pilots were not even aware that this system was fitted ?
Here's a turn up for the books. I wonder how large the discount was.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...x-jets-459119/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...x-jets-459119/
Here's a turn up for the books. I wonder how large the discount was.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...x-jets-459119/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...x-jets-459119/
It doesn't have to specify that - it's taken as read that either party can walk away from a LoI without any obligations (apart from stuff about confidentiality, etc).
Mmmmm no lawyer I but I believe that they have been taken to have created a contract in the past. A quick google shows some case law to that effect in the US and UK. I expect IAG have passed their legal bill for drafting this to Boeing
So drawing a line between the two different areas of the business, A320s (presumably) for the mainstream brands, Max for the cheapos - narrower fuselage, more squashed toilets, etc.
Notably, although both the IAG website and WW himself have specifically stated those Low Cost brands are the ones the aircraft are for, the mainstream press have all looked up IAG and said it is BA, Iberia and Aer Lingus. Which just shows how much credibility the mainstream media have.
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Here's a turn up for the books. I wonder how large the discount was.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...x-jets-459119/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...x-jets-459119/
=$$$$$$$$ discount.
Just wonder what %age discount they got ? ‘Free training’ of course Mr. Walsh Sir
Only half a speed-brake
Was it not the case that Ryanair's investors threw a lifeline to Boeing post 9 /11, and in turn bulit a solid fiscal foundation for their enterprise over the span of many of the early years?
Imitation, flattery notwithstanding, if there is a juicy business opportunity, a good manager has an obligation to make use of it
Imitation, flattery notwithstanding, if there is a juicy business opportunity, a good manager has an obligation to make use of it
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Is a LoI, not a firm order, thus no money has been paid. A zero risk deal for IAG. It cost them only few public words of confidence in Boeing.
Deliveries are scheduled to start in 2023, they have years before firming up the order
Deliveries are scheduled to start in 2023, they have years before firming up the order
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and it did say in the article I read that it gave IAG bargaining power with other narrow body suppliers, a side swipe at Airbus I take it. Any large airline has a two supplier policy, just to keep them super keen. Emirates for example A380 and B777.
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