Sheremetyevo Superjet 100 in flames
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Very unlikely for a short-haul airliner. They usually can land at maximum takeoff weight (or very slightly less) without any problems to allow very short hops without the need to refuel at every stop. And even larger types, which have a maximum landing weight significantly lower than maximum takeoff weight, can perform a safe overweight landing, but require an inspection afterwards.
Bernd
Bernd
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My couple of pennies:
1. Miracle anyone survived after the fire broke out, it was very intense.
2. Even if no one carried out any bags some people would have died due to the fire being so intense.
3. Bags most likely did impede the evacuation and very possibly more lives would have been saved had there been a faster evac.
4. It will take a govt mandate to reverse the current situation of larger and larger bins for larger and larger take on bags. Many airlines charge passengers to check in even one bag. No small amount either. Overhead bins should be made to be very tiny. Only very small briefcases, ladies handbags and the such should be allowed on board. We all know how much faster passengers can board and be seated if they didn't have all those bags with them. Which really don't belong in the cabin. It belongs in the cargo hold. And of course human nature dictates people will try to get their bags and take them with them. You simply can not stop this , will be like stopping the tide from coming in. Even in a full blown emergency. Physically stop them taking onboard large bags will the the only solution.
5. Looked like a fairly normal approach but hard first tire contact. After which the airplane seemed to gain some height as if intending to go around. Which is said to be the only correct thing to do after a bounce. In one of the vids it seemed the plane made hard contact , lifted off quite steeply and gained a bit of altitude then nosed down and made harder second contact after which fire could be seen.
1. Miracle anyone survived after the fire broke out, it was very intense.
2. Even if no one carried out any bags some people would have died due to the fire being so intense.
3. Bags most likely did impede the evacuation and very possibly more lives would have been saved had there been a faster evac.
4. It will take a govt mandate to reverse the current situation of larger and larger bins for larger and larger take on bags. Many airlines charge passengers to check in even one bag. No small amount either. Overhead bins should be made to be very tiny. Only very small briefcases, ladies handbags and the such should be allowed on board. We all know how much faster passengers can board and be seated if they didn't have all those bags with them. Which really don't belong in the cabin. It belongs in the cargo hold. And of course human nature dictates people will try to get their bags and take them with them. You simply can not stop this , will be like stopping the tide from coming in. Even in a full blown emergency. Physically stop them taking onboard large bags will the the only solution.
5. Looked like a fairly normal approach but hard first tire contact. After which the airplane seemed to gain some height as if intending to go around. Which is said to be the only correct thing to do after a bounce. In one of the vids it seemed the plane made hard contact , lifted off quite steeply and gained a bit of altitude then nosed down and made harder second contact after which fire could be seen.
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I’m wondering if severity of first touchdown, which I’m not sure is what is in video(s), may have been compounded by the effect of direct law and closing thrust levers of low slung engines prior to touchdown resulting in a pitch down (if that’s what they had).
I’ve flown 737-300 and A320. The effect on pitch of changing thrust on the former was instinctive as it was always effectively in Direct Law.
The Sioux City UA DC-10 reports cited the effect of reducing thrust prior to touchdown as contributory to the hard landing (notwithstanding the brilliant job they did with the cards they were dealt).
I’ve flown 737-300 and A320. The effect on pitch of changing thrust on the former was instinctive as it was always effectively in Direct Law.
The Sioux City UA DC-10 reports cited the effect of reducing thrust prior to touchdown as contributory to the hard landing (notwithstanding the brilliant job they did with the cards they were dealt).
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The Daily Mail from today. A lot of videos and pics, a FA who speaks from hail, and a pax demands refund immediately....!!
Quote FA:
'I kicked the door out with my leg and pushed out the passengers so as not to slow the evacuation. Just to hurry them up I grabbed each of them by the collar from the back.
'It was all so quick. The smoke was already black. The last people were crawling to get out.
'Everyone had jumped from their seats and moved forwards, although the plane was still moving at a good speed. I saw the first woman calling somebody on her phone and saying, we are on fire, we are falling down.'
She said there was a heavy hail storm moment after takeoff from the international airport, before the plane was struck by lightning.'There was a flash followed by popping. A bright light flash,' she said. 'We took off and got into a cloud and it was hailing. There was such a noise outside [as hail hit the plane]. 'At that moment it was a popping, mainly on the ….left side… Everyone was looking at me looked at me. There was popping and a flash, like an electric flash.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ane-crash.html
Quote FA:
'I kicked the door out with my leg and pushed out the passengers so as not to slow the evacuation. Just to hurry them up I grabbed each of them by the collar from the back.
'It was all so quick. The smoke was already black. The last people were crawling to get out.
'Everyone had jumped from their seats and moved forwards, although the plane was still moving at a good speed. I saw the first woman calling somebody on her phone and saying, we are on fire, we are falling down.'
She said there was a heavy hail storm moment after takeoff from the international airport, before the plane was struck by lightning.'There was a flash followed by popping. A bright light flash,' she said. 'We took off and got into a cloud and it was hailing. There was such a noise outside [as hail hit the plane]. 'At that moment it was a popping, mainly on the ….left side… Everyone was looking at me looked at me. There was popping and a flash, like an electric flash.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ane-crash.html
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Some items must come with you
Emergency evacuation off a plane in some countries leaving ID and money on the plane will see you banged up until they identify you (USA).
I also need my cables to charge phones to be in contact with family. I don't always wear a jacket when flying.
So reduce hand luggage to an over the chest bag which can be taken down the slide without issue.
I also need my cables to charge phones to be in contact with family. I don't always wear a jacket when flying.
So reduce hand luggage to an over the chest bag which can be taken down the slide without issue.
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Landing bounce most probably caused by PIO
When I saw the bounce video I immediately thought they were in direct law. This is now confirmed by the Russian interviews with the Pilot. The SSJ FBW is very good according to pilots I've spoken with. It's flight laws gives you a responsive but well-damped aircraft to fly. The computers regulate the stick to movables gearing and damping dependent on the flight situation. This is all gone in Direct law. You are flying an aircraft which is now responding directly 1:1 to stick and pedal movements, no gearing, no damping, no corrections.
This surprises the pilot on short final when he shall start the flare IMO as he could only have flown Direct Law in simulator training and then not much. He is most likely in PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation) from short final, overcorrecting through the flare and then further on. It's difficult to stop a PIO once it has started. When you feel you don't have the aircraft responding as you want your muscles stiffen up as adrenalin pumps and this increases the PIO probability. The way to stop PIO is to let go of the stick for a second and come back with a softer arm but this is not what the Pilot can or dare to do in his situation. I guess the Direct Law fulfills the certification requirements as these are relaxed for an emergency backup mode. But one shall perhaps re-evaluate it's gearing.
This surprises the pilot on short final when he shall start the flare IMO as he could only have flown Direct Law in simulator training and then not much. He is most likely in PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation) from short final, overcorrecting through the flare and then further on. It's difficult to stop a PIO once it has started. When you feel you don't have the aircraft responding as you want your muscles stiffen up as adrenalin pumps and this increases the PIO probability. The way to stop PIO is to let go of the stick for a second and come back with a softer arm but this is not what the Pilot can or dare to do in his situation. I guess the Direct Law fulfills the certification requirements as these are relaxed for an emergency backup mode. But one shall perhaps re-evaluate it's gearing.
Hard to believe, understand why, that BA allows hand baggage weighing up to 23 kilos, 50 pounds, generous in the extreme BUT not good in an emergency evacuation knowing how some pax, behave in such a situation.
The video of the 777 evac shows some pax bring off “hand baggage” what looked like suitcases !
The video of the 777 evac shows some pax bring off “hand baggage” what looked like suitcases !
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There has been a lot of professionally understandable indignation in this thread about passengers who stop to pick up their cabin baggage before fleeing a burning plane. To well informed professionals this seems an almost criminal act but I have two points I would like to gently make.
1.) When any statistical cross section of humanity regularly makes a decision that seems stupid it may not be the people who are to blame but the system. It's probably bucking human nature.
2.) The airline business as a whole shares a lot of the blame. They aren't getting the message across and they're not really trying.
The issue is that there is a conflict in the industry brain between marketing and safety. No one selling a BA (say) airline seat is going to lead with what is critical to life during a crash, they sell the sunshine. Yes there is a flight safety briefing but it's all friendly and jolly. The result, when a serious problem does occur, is denial. Even when faced with death passengers don't realise. That is how they come to make apparently stupid decisions. Castigating passengers is too easy a blame game. My suspicion is that as mentioned in the thread, the most likely fix for this is to lock the overhead lockers during flight.
1.) When any statistical cross section of humanity regularly makes a decision that seems stupid it may not be the people who are to blame but the system. It's probably bucking human nature.
2.) The airline business as a whole shares a lot of the blame. They aren't getting the message across and they're not really trying.
The issue is that there is a conflict in the industry brain between marketing and safety. No one selling a BA (say) airline seat is going to lead with what is critical to life during a crash, they sell the sunshine. Yes there is a flight safety briefing but it's all friendly and jolly. The result, when a serious problem does occur, is denial. Even when faced with death passengers don't realise. That is how they come to make apparently stupid decisions. Castigating passengers is too easy a blame game. My suspicion is that as mentioned in the thread, the most likely fix for this is to lock the overhead lockers during flight.
mjb
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Over the years, passengers have been getting larger and seat pitch ever smaller. But according to Sukhoi, the Superjet 100 has around 32" seat pitch in 2+3 for most economy class seating - which is far more generous than the absurdly cramped 180 seat 3+3 configuration Lufthansa use in the A320neo.
So it's not just passengers grabbing luggage which could impede an evacuation, it's the difficulty some would have in even trying to get out of cramped seats in the first place.
If more airlines reduce cabin baggage allowance, there is every chance that many airports won't be able to cope with additional baggage loading and unloading. More luggage will get lost or damaged - which is probably why may passengers now try to avoid checking in the luggage. On short trips with Lufthansa, I now use a 'cabin trolley' which I bought from them as it is advertised as being compliant with their cabin baggage allowances; I always check that it is within their 8 kg allowance. It goes in the overhead locker, whereas my passport, tickets, phone and car keys remain in my pockets.
But do other passengers ensure that they comply with the rules? Absolutely not, going by the number of 'aeroplane mountaineers' one sees struggling down the aisles with their bergens.
I hope that Vladimir Putin will decorate the brave cabin attendant who did such sterling work with a suitable award.
So it's not just passengers grabbing luggage which could impede an evacuation, it's the difficulty some would have in even trying to get out of cramped seats in the first place.
If more airlines reduce cabin baggage allowance, there is every chance that many airports won't be able to cope with additional baggage loading and unloading. More luggage will get lost or damaged - which is probably why may passengers now try to avoid checking in the luggage. On short trips with Lufthansa, I now use a 'cabin trolley' which I bought from them as it is advertised as being compliant with their cabin baggage allowances; I always check that it is within their 8 kg allowance. It goes in the overhead locker, whereas my passport, tickets, phone and car keys remain in my pockets.
But do other passengers ensure that they comply with the rules? Absolutely not, going by the number of 'aeroplane mountaineers' one sees struggling down the aisles with their bergens.
I hope that Vladimir Putin will decorate the brave cabin attendant who did such sterling work with a suitable award.
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In truth, I find this collective outrage about pax exiting with their belongings rather odd. Everyone who travels regularly knows that checking in a bag is a form of roulette. Maybe it will come round the carousel at the other end, maybe it won't. Maybe it will be broken open, maybe it will go to Burkina Faso, maybe it will just be smashed up. No one likes to come off a long flight only to stand by the carousel for an hour waiting for a suitcase to be unloaded.
So everyone carries the essentials with them as hand luggage. For me, 'essentials' is ideally what I can live on for a week - clothes, gym kit, a spare pair of shoes, wash bag, laptop and associated electronics, etc etc.
As long as the airlines let me board with 12kg + in a trolley bag, of course I will try to do that. But I fly 50 - 100 legs a year, so I reckon one day I'll be in an accident, and I have evolved a few little habits. I travel in a jacket, which I keep on during take off and landing, with my phone, wallet, and passports in the jacket. I also keep my shoes on for take off and landing, and try to sit as close to the front as I can. I keep back-ups of my laptop in three different locations, and anyway of course most of the key info is sync'd to my phone.
I like to think, therefore, that I wouldn't try to grab my trolley bag on the way out in an emergency. But I know many fellow passengers would, so I also visualise how it will be to knee 'em in the nethers and smack 'em in the head with my elbows as I clamber over them and their bags on the way to the exit. Any violent act is easier if you've already thought it through in advance.
As many have noted above, airlines would rather you carried hand luggage than check bags in - it's cheaper and makes for faster turn-around times. Airlines are no more likely to use scary safety videos than are car manufacturers or gun manufacturers - despite cars and guns killing a thousand times more people in the US every year than aircraft do. So pax will carry hand luggage, and pax will try to take hand luggage with them when they exit - in an emergency or not.
Short version - when push comes to shove, you better be prepared to push and shove harder than the next man.
So everyone carries the essentials with them as hand luggage. For me, 'essentials' is ideally what I can live on for a week - clothes, gym kit, a spare pair of shoes, wash bag, laptop and associated electronics, etc etc.
As long as the airlines let me board with 12kg + in a trolley bag, of course I will try to do that. But I fly 50 - 100 legs a year, so I reckon one day I'll be in an accident, and I have evolved a few little habits. I travel in a jacket, which I keep on during take off and landing, with my phone, wallet, and passports in the jacket. I also keep my shoes on for take off and landing, and try to sit as close to the front as I can. I keep back-ups of my laptop in three different locations, and anyway of course most of the key info is sync'd to my phone.
I like to think, therefore, that I wouldn't try to grab my trolley bag on the way out in an emergency. But I know many fellow passengers would, so I also visualise how it will be to knee 'em in the nethers and smack 'em in the head with my elbows as I clamber over them and their bags on the way to the exit. Any violent act is easier if you've already thought it through in advance.
As many have noted above, airlines would rather you carried hand luggage than check bags in - it's cheaper and makes for faster turn-around times. Airlines are no more likely to use scary safety videos than are car manufacturers or gun manufacturers - despite cars and guns killing a thousand times more people in the US every year than aircraft do. So pax will carry hand luggage, and pax will try to take hand luggage with them when they exit - in an emergency or not.
Short version - when push comes to shove, you better be prepared to push and shove harder than the next man.
That's a very far-fetched and unrealistic argument. People understand that if a locker is locked because they've been told so, be it in a brief or with a red light by the handle that there isn't any point trying. Any that did try would surely give up in a couple of seconds.
Then even unimaginative ones like Espada will learn to put passport, cards and other esssentials (a mobile phone is NOT an essential, let alone charging cables!) in their pockets instead of overhead which is surely what most sensible travellers do already.
Last edited by meleagertoo; 7th May 2019 at 12:12.
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There is a genuine report of a surviving passenger in one of Russian web forums. It is compiled into one post here (still in Russian).
My translation:
Author's seats:
There's a lot more in Russian. This translation ends just before the phrase
My translation:
Hi all, I was a passenger on this flight. A couple of explanations:
- ppl with suitcases are from business class. Their bags were not large and didn't impede anyone.
- there was no jam [of passengers]. One woman fell down in the aisle, she was quickly lifted up and pushed out.
- behind the 12th row almost nobody sirvived [one survivor climbed the chairs alongside standing ppl, he's in hospital - translator's comment] - you could've noticed no slides at the back. Did'nt deploy. And even if they did, there was scorching heat. Most of them died in a moment.
- oxigen masks didn't deploy. At most 3-4 on the right side.
- FF and other emergency services arrived quickly. But even if late, there was nobody to rescue.
- despite overall mess and lack of coordination, all casualties were attended to, supported, given food and there was even vodka - just one bottle, but at least smth
- ppl with suitcases are from business class. Their bags were not large and didn't impede anyone.
- there was no jam [of passengers]. One woman fell down in the aisle, she was quickly lifted up and pushed out.
- behind the 12th row almost nobody sirvived [one survivor climbed the chairs alongside standing ppl, he's in hospital - translator's comment] - you could've noticed no slides at the back. Did'nt deploy. And even if they did, there was scorching heat. Most of them died in a moment.
- oxigen masks didn't deploy. At most 3-4 on the right side.
- FF and other emergency services arrived quickly. But even if late, there was nobody to rescue.
- despite overall mess and lack of coordination, all casualties were attended to, supported, given food and there was even vodka - just one bottle, but at least smth
As for how quickly the AC burns, I didn't expect that it birns like a plastic cup. Momentarily. Windows in my row [12 a,c - two seats on theleft side] melted even before we stopped
As for survival - there was a moment of luck and no panic. Breathe in the black smoke once and one wouldn't get up. Given there is no visibility, nobody will go to rescue him - can't see him. Impossible to breathe.
There were no full-face masks on the plane or they couldn't be found.
There were no full-face masks on the plane or they couldn't be found.
It's remarkable that the LG almost dampened the blow. It was jolty but not critically. In fact almost all pax sat until the AC stopped. At least those whom I saw from my row.
Smone wrote that ppl might not have been fastened and lost consciousness from the blow - ther was not such a blow. All was tolerable. And I don't think that seatbelts in a plane prevent you from heating the front seat with your head.
Row 12 seat A, my wife C [she survived]
I was the last one to leave [below he explains he crouched then crawled], there were no ppl behind me from aft rows
I can't explain why almost all behind row 12 died, I can guess. First, they might hurry to the nearest exit - aft ones. Second, they might burn in the flame from the wing. Those in front rows who didn't make it - carbon monoxide. Breathe in twice and you're done.
По поводу того, руководили ли бортпроводники:
