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Sheremetyevo Superjet 100 in flames

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Sheremetyevo Superjet 100 in flames

Old 9th May 2019, 09:32
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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while the calls for overhead bins to be locked are valid, problem is that a large amount of emergency equipment is stored in overhead lockers. So who and how unlocks them to retrieve the emergency equipment when required?
The answer is simple. How about the authorities do their job.
It is a requirement to obey any LAWFUL instruction on board an aircraft. So any person leaving with a bag should simply be charged with a criminal offence. Bags stowed under the seat are no exception. In an emergency you are explicitly told to leave EVERYTHING behind.

41 counts of Manslaughter should be a significant deterrent.

Last edited by TPE Flyer; 9th May 2019 at 14:36.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:08
  #362 (permalink)  
 
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It is a requirement to obey any LAWFUL instruction on board an aircraft. So any person leaving with a bag should simply be charged with a criminal offence. Bags stowed under the seat are no exception. In an emergency you are explicitly told to leave EVERYTHING behind

Letís face it, The safety briefing is a farce. Passengers reading, talking, ignoring it (yeah yeah we know all that) - hostesses serving drinks and chatting to the guests up front during the auto briefing.
Its just a tick in a box. No examination of pax afterwards (of course not - but just to illustrate the lack of seriousness).
Schematic safety on board cards with indecipherable drawings and distracting colours donít help.
So when pax in a decompression sit with masks on mouths but not noses, when pax in a ditching canít undo a seat belt or inflate the mae west prematurely in the cabin (and float to the roof) and when pax in an evacuation take all their kit - it is horrible - but to be expected.
The whole thing is an alibi to satisfy authorities.
Some airlines try to use humour to try to get attention, some insist on the PA but the pax generally remains a selfish animal for whom an aeroplane is just a means of transport and not the safety system aimed for by the crew (or at least some crews) and the flight safety department.
The other thread about the overwing passenger in NZ is a case in point.

By the way - a putative lockable rack door - would you have it locked or unlocked when evacuation checklist requires battery switched off? Would you have it on the emergency bus? Would you have each door locked manually by a square key?
Wrong way to go. What does a pax really need on board - versus what does a pax take on board to avoid delays - should be looked at.
Overnight bag pickup directly at the aircraft for folk in a hurry could be a way - as is done with kiddy buggies etc. and reduce the items brought into the cabin to a minimum.
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Old 9th May 2019, 11:04
  #363 (permalink)  
 
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Question

Originally Posted by 737 Driver View Post
I know nothing about this aircraft of its systems. I am just curious if the reported malfunction might have resulted in the crew having to do a zero flap land and/or no ground spoilers? I can't tell from the videos. That might provide some of the reason for the bounced landing (should have gone around anyway). Something like this can happen with the 737, and it makes for a touchy landing, particularly if you are fast.
I did a TE-Flaps up landing in a NG once, with touchdown just shy of 190kts... no big deal on a long runway when you do a relative positive landing with immediate spoiler deployment.

But the post crash pictures clearly show slats and flaps extended in this case...

So why did they bounce? (no ground Spoiler deployment, excessive speed ?)

And why did they not went around after the first bounce?
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Old 9th May 2019, 11:09
  #364 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bill fly View Post
Letís face it, The safety briefing is a farce. Passengers reading, talking, ignoring it (yeah yeah we know all that) - hostesses serving drinks and chatting to the guests up front during the auto briefing.
Agreed, but that does not change the fact, that people are breaking the law when they do not follow these lawful instructions, and if again and again this is not punished, people learn even more to ignore it. We should systematically and heavily fine such behaviour, even if finally it may just have costd 1 or 2 lives in this crash for the first time in 20 years.
Law enforcement seems to be a bit out of fashion, especially if it interferes with business... And just limited to certain special cases. Smoking a joint just potentially endangering your own health is punished harder than potentially endangering the life of other passengers...

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Old 9th May 2019, 13:32
  #365 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone confirm the gear was down before the first bounce? Electrical failures might have disrupted indications.
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Old 9th May 2019, 20:06
  #366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRH270/12 View Post


And why did they not went around after the first bounce?
Admittedly, asking as SLF - but if you've managed to bounce it hard enough to snap the landing gear and poke holes in the fuel tank, do you really want to go around with fuel gushing from the aircraft, or do you want to get down to where the fire trucks are as quickly as possible?
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Old 9th May 2019, 20:10
  #367 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jugofpropwash View Post
Admittedly, asking as SLF - but if you've managed to bounce it hard enough to snap the landing gear and poke holes in the fuel tank, do you really want to go around with fuel gushing from the aircraft, or do you want to get down to where the fire trucks are as quickly as possible?
He said "after the first bounce"
Not the last where everything broke loose....
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Old 9th May 2019, 21:11
  #368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing View Post
He said "after the first bounce"
Not the last where everything broke loose....
But do we know which bounce started the leak? It appeared the fire started on the second (third?), but which hit actually did the initial damage?

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Old 9th May 2019, 22:58
  #369 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jugofpropwash View Post
Admittedly, asking as SLF - but if you've managed to bounce it hard enough to snap the landing gear and poke holes in the fuel tank, do you really want to go around with fuel gushing from the aircraft, or do you want to get down to where the fire trucks are as quickly as possible?
You just might not know what the damage is. First of all, all this stuff happends real quick and then you just donīt see whats happening, 'we' have the shots from the security camera and a lot of time in our armchairs. And then it be procedure to go around when bouncing (this might vary with aircraft type and also operator)
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Old 9th May 2019, 23:06
  #370 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clearedtocross View Post
Can anyone confirm the gear was down before the first bounce? Electrical failures might have disrupted indications.
Yes - check first video in post #346. The main gear are visible hanging below the aircraft in at least one video frame, immediately following the first bounce (somewhere in the first second of video). You have to step through the video frame-by-frame to see it. Of course, that doesn't mean "down and locked."

It looks to me (although I can't swear to it due to low video resolution) that the gear are already damaged by first ground contact, and thus progressively fold backwards during the airborne part of the first bounce under the influence of the high airspeed. By the second touchdown, they are folded back and useless.
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Old 10th May 2019, 01:12
  #371 (permalink)  
 
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There is a video here from inside the plane where the two bounces can be identified. By frame counting the two videos, it's clear the time between first and second bounce is 2.0sec. Between second bounce and the "landing" is 3.5sec. So there are two bounces, where only second one is seen on the outside video. I don't count the "landing" as a bounce. This makes for a pretty accurate estimate on the runway (image below).

In comparison, the Tokyo Fedex MD11 had a first and second bounce of 2.0sec and 5.0sec.




Last edited by dukof; 10th May 2019 at 10:17.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:45
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Think about that for a second. A single switch (i.e. single failure), that will shutoff both engines.
Maybe it can be implemented as an undocumented software enhancement instead of using a physical switch...
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Old 10th May 2019, 07:59
  #373 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks gentleman, but really I'd prefer not to have a switch, or any mechanism really, with the authority to shut down both engines!
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Old 10th May 2019, 13:37
  #374 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dukof View Post
...

Yep, watching this video, the first impression as if the engines were idle all the way down. Then, if one uses headphones and full volume, a very low frequency fluctuations may be heard from 2:20 onwards, giving an idea of possible minimal throttle inputs over the runway.

There is also a characteristic air rambling noise corresponding either main gears or flaps, or spoilers.

Not much fluctuation in pitch, roll or air flow noise, suggesting that the approach was one of the most stable possible and gentle on the controls.

The level off was very smooth and gentle either and a/c was just floating and bleeding the speed until 2:45.

At 2:45 the a/c almost kissed the ground, but ballooned. It could be, the stick back pressure was relaxed just a tiny bit here as the a/c pitch up moment was arrested.

Some a/c types or their configuration (CofG, speed and mechanisation) require at least 2-4 bounces on its own before eventually recover with the full throttle and stick frozen in climbing position.

Well I wonder, if Suchoi or any other plane was tested on the bounce recovery given the speed, weigh, CofG and mechanisation used in this scenario?
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Old 10th May 2019, 16:19
  #375 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Joe_K View Post
The question is: why do airlines encourage PAX to bring as much crap as possible into the cabin.
I have never thought the airlines encourage it - the Pax started it for convenience - especially on connections. Carriers just had to adapt. Later some carriers made a virtue out of it but, I reckon, did not start it. Now they know the Pax want this and want to pay as little money as possible.
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Old 10th May 2019, 16:36
  #376 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PAXboy View Post
I have never thought the airlines encourage it - the Pax started it for convenience - especially on connections. Carriers just had to adapt. Later some carriers made a virtue out of it but, I reckon, did not start it. Now they know the Pax want this and want to pay as little money as possible.
not just convenience but security too, perhaps if electrical goods were safe in the baggage handling world then more people might be tempted to put their cameras, laptops etc in the hold but until then, mine remain in the cabin. That said, until you had to pay for checking in bags I was quite happy to put my roll-along in the hold, but still not my laptop etc. I object to having to pay to check in bags just for the sake of it, so now my roll-along goes in the cabin with my laptop etc inside it too. Passports, wallet & driving licence stays with me (in my man-bag attached to my belt).
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Old 10th May 2019, 17:24
  #377 (permalink)  
 
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not just convenience but security too, perhaps if electrical goods were safe in the baggage handling world then more people might be tempted to put their cameras, laptops etc
Exactly, I travel with expensive camera equipment and wouldn't trust leaving it in the hold. However, I would add that in the event of an emergency evacuation I WOULD leave it behind! As for laptops, because of safety concerns, I don't think airlines want them in the hold unless batteries are removed. How many would bother to do that?
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:52
  #378 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by apatity2 View Post
Yep, watching this video, the first impression as if the engines were idle all the way down. Then, if one uses headphones and full volume, a very low frequency fluctuations may be heard from 2:20 onwards, giving an idea of possible minimal throttle inputs over the runway.

There is also a characteristic air rambling noise corresponding either main gears or flaps, or spoilers.

Not much fluctuation in pitch, roll or air flow noise, suggesting that the approach was one of the most stable possible and gentle on the controls.

The level off was very smooth and gentle either and a/c was just floating and bleeding the speed until 2:45.

At 2:45 the a/c almost kissed the ground, but ballooned. It could be, the stick back pressure was relaxed just a tiny bit here as the a/c pitch up moment was arrested.

Some a/c types or their configuration (CofG, speed and mechanisation) require at least 2-4 bounces on its own before eventually recover with the full throttle and stick frozen in climbing position.

Well I wonder, if Suchoi or any other plane was tested on the bounce recovery given the speed, weigh, CofG and mechanisation used in this scenario?
Watching this video, I had the impression of missing any signs of flair? Could you confirm?
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Old 11th May 2019, 17:45
  #379 (permalink)  
 
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Worth a read:

Bjorn's Corner
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Old 11th May 2019, 18:05
  #380 (permalink)  
 
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Interresting read. Are direct law landings practiced in simulators?
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