Ethiopian airliner down in Africa
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737 Driver the image you posted has only one of the smaller strakes ... so when was the second strake introduced ... my guess based on Takwis answer and PEI's post is the -600 to -900 ... so you would expect a reason for that... do you know what 737-model that KLM plane was?
737 Driver in the image that I posted I indicated the difference between the 'trapdoor' and the 'leading edge' ...IIRC the trapdoor opens down and forward and is as far as I could see not a part of the moveable leading edge/slats ... it would require a detailed picture of a MAX to clear that up I guess (would be nice to see one),
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I agree. This is how commercial aviation has become as safe as it is. When accidents happen, we seek not to blame individuals, but to understand root causes, and prevent or reduce the chance of the same thing happening again by correcting design or materials defects, augmenting training, changing procedures, improving regulatory oversight, documentation, and communication, or all of those things.
Sadly it seems there is a trend in society (I call it "outrage culture") where the response to any calamity is one driven by anger and blame, and not one seeking to solve actual problems. Or maybe I'm just getting old.
Sadly it seems there is a trend in society (I call it "outrage culture") where the response to any calamity is one driven by anger and blame, and not one seeking to solve actual problems. Or maybe I'm just getting old.
In blame there is profit - and a payday for a lawyer.
The criminal test is an actus reus combined with mens rea.
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35 seconds. That is exactly the time "wasted" by captain Sullenberger's reaction time - he could have landed at La Guardia had he reacted "properly"!
In other words, Sully would have crashed this airplane, too. Must be a terrible pilot with no skills and no aviation safety insight.
In other words, Sully would have crashed this airplane, too. Must be a terrible pilot with no skills and no aviation safety insight.
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https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...iation-honors/
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35 seconds. That is exactly the time "wasted" by captain Sullenberger's reaction time - he could have landed at La Guardia had he reacted "properly"!
In other words, Sully would have crashed this airplane, too. Must be a terrible pilot with no skills and no aviation safety insight.
737 Driver--
First, let me congratulate you ( like others have done ) on comprehensive and insightful analysis of this sad episode in aviation . It is just a pity that your observations /advice seem to be falling on so many deaf ears . Hence this thread continues to go round in ever widening circles , with no apparent end in sight .
There is an old saying -" a good workman never blames his tools " ; to that end , we can add the mantra--" Safety is a well trained pilot " .
Continuing on the same path of quotations , there is the favourite from Shakespeare --" Man has oft more need to be reminded than informed " . We forget past lessons easily .
Which brings me to the final , main point , (which you have stressed , in bold type , goodness knows how many times )--FLY THE AIRCRAFT. This is drummed into every pilot from day one . Sadly , this fairly simple piece of advice often falls by the wayside in the heat of the moment . The basics have been forgotten . Now , why this is so is another matter entirely .
Okay, Sully wasn't piloting a 737, but let's say he did. Somehow I just don't think Sully would have allowed his stab trim to run for 9 continuous seconds (that would be 37 spins of the trim wheel) before doing something about it, say like hitting the yoke trim switch with his left thumb. I certainly don't think he would let that happen twice. Maybe we should also note that Sully wasn't piloting Lion Air 610 the day before the accident (same aircraft, different crew in the very first documented case of the MCAS malfunction), and yet they still managed to figure out that when an automated system puts in some stab trim you don't want, it is entirely possible to take it right back out again.
There is an old saying -" a good workman never blames his tools " ; to that end , we can add the mantra--" Safety is a well trained pilot " .
Continuing on the same path of quotations , there is the favourite from Shakespeare --" Man has oft more need to be reminded than informed " . We forget past lessons easily .
Which brings me to the final , main point , (which you have stressed , in bold type , goodness knows how many times )--FLY THE AIRCRAFT. This is drummed into every pilot from day one . Sadly , this fairly simple piece of advice often falls by the wayside in the heat of the moment . The basics have been forgotten . Now , why this is so is another matter entirely .
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Obvious errors were made that had fatal consequences. Since most of us would like to assume that this wasn't a case of malicious or negligent behavior, then presumably there were some significant human factor element behind these lapses.
I am referring, of course, to the various engineers, technical and supervisory staff that designed and approved MCAS for service.
I am referring, of course, to the various engineers, technical and supervisory staff that designed and approved MCAS for service.
You can look at the Volkswagen emissions scandal for example. A lot of people conspired to disregard the regulations to increase profits. I see no reason something similar wouldn't be possible at Boeing. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it turns out Boeing ignored or even deliberately covered up the MCAS safety issues, hoping they wouldn't get caught.
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So you are saying that Boeing was on the same path as Volkswagen and had specifically designed software that operated when it was tested. Wow you really have no idea of the people in Boeing. I don't work for them but I have had a lot to do with them and that is not what they are about culturally.
I agree with some of the posts above: If the Aircraft is not doing what you want then make it do what you want. Take out the automation and hand fly it if need be but take control of it.
Have a look at the data released in the preliminary report for ET302 and see if you can work out what they were doing in the 2 minutes before MCAS came in. That would also be the MCAS they were supposed to have been informed about after the release of the bulletin by Boeing. There are a lot of factors to this one and although MCAS is a flawed concept and has to be fixed the aircraft around it is fine and actually very nice to operate.
As for psychopaths in corporate structures I have meet some definite candidates over the years as well as some in Pilots uniforms.
I agree with some of the posts above: If the Aircraft is not doing what you want then make it do what you want. Take out the automation and hand fly it if need be but take control of it.
Have a look at the data released in the preliminary report for ET302 and see if you can work out what they were doing in the 2 minutes before MCAS came in. That would also be the MCAS they were supposed to have been informed about after the release of the bulletin by Boeing. There are a lot of factors to this one and although MCAS is a flawed concept and has to be fixed the aircraft around it is fine and actually very nice to operate.
As for psychopaths in corporate structures I have meet some definite candidates over the years as well as some in Pilots uniforms.
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So you are saying that Boeing was on the same path as Volkswagen and had specifically designed software that operated when it was tested. Wow you really have no idea of the people in Boeing. I don't work for them but I have had a lot to do with them and that is not what they are about culturally.
And I don't mean to blame all the Boeing employees, or even a majority of Boeing's employees. I'm sure many of them are fine people that do their best every day, and are sickened and angry about the situation. But it's enough to have a few dozens of people in key positions being unethical. It doesn't matter if 99% of the employees are not like that, the final outcome can be the same.
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will you explain how to take out the automation, in this case MCAS, unless you mean indeed to crank the wheels?
i might missed the switch to do so, would appreciate if you can point it to me
As stated by SystemsNerd, the human cognition has limitations and foibles that many people are unaware of. One of these is the limited number of 'cognitive channels' also known as multiple resource theory. (see papers by Christopher Wickens and Erik Hollnagel) Simply you cannot read this posting and recite a something you have learned like NNC memory items at the same time - both use verbal cognition - if you are reading and someone says something you may hear them but you will not understand what they said and you will stop reading and ask them to repeat what they said. If you have to read, talk and listen at the same time you can only really do one at a time (we have all had to read a paragraph again as we stopped understanding what we were reading and listened instead).
So if you are running through memory items of an NNC - and you read the EICAS you may miss NNC items or not understand the EICAS - if the PM is shouting at you it may just be noise - if there is sufficient noise that channel stops completely and you do not even hear/comprehend the PM or that cavalry charge.
Mixed into this is the effect of the level of stress/alertness. This is normally referred to as an 'inverted U'.
from MindTools.com
So when you are bored with low stress your performance is actually poor, A little pressure / stress and your performance is ideal, but too much high stress and your performance will drop off rapidly.
Putting all that into an aviation perspective, A well trained pilot with experience of things going pear shaped and operating under pressure will not feel so much stress and concentrate on one item at a time and a lot of what will be done will be (what is called here ) muscle memory - innate training like stamping on a brake or steering a bike to stay balanced - or trimming an aircraft - it requires no thought as it is second nature. This is the importance of training - with not so much training it is easy to get into the overstressed very low performance state and 'get behind the aircraft'. The more inputs you are given the higher the stress and the less you are able to process and the normal human reaction to that is what is known as attentional or cognitive tunneling - a concentration on one aspect of what is happening that you _do_ think you can control and a total disregard of anything else. Everyone is different in this regard and the only way to avoid getting into the wrong side of the U is training, repeated training to get that muscle memory. Unfortunately, there is always a beancounter standing in the way of that.
So if you are running through memory items of an NNC - and you read the EICAS you may miss NNC items or not understand the EICAS - if the PM is shouting at you it may just be noise - if there is sufficient noise that channel stops completely and you do not even hear/comprehend the PM or that cavalry charge.
Mixed into this is the effect of the level of stress/alertness. This is normally referred to as an 'inverted U'.
from MindTools.com
So when you are bored with low stress your performance is actually poor, A little pressure / stress and your performance is ideal, but too much high stress and your performance will drop off rapidly.
Putting all that into an aviation perspective, A well trained pilot with experience of things going pear shaped and operating under pressure will not feel so much stress and concentrate on one item at a time and a lot of what will be done will be (what is called here ) muscle memory - innate training like stamping on a brake or steering a bike to stay balanced - or trimming an aircraft - it requires no thought as it is second nature. This is the importance of training - with not so much training it is easy to get into the overstressed very low performance state and 'get behind the aircraft'. The more inputs you are given the higher the stress and the less you are able to process and the normal human reaction to that is what is known as attentional or cognitive tunneling - a concentration on one aspect of what is happening that you _do_ think you can control and a total disregard of anything else. Everyone is different in this regard and the only way to avoid getting into the wrong side of the U is training, repeated training to get that muscle memory. Unfortunately, there is always a beancounter standing in the way of that.
Where the MCAS trim runaway becomes difficult to deal with is it's transient nature, kind of like a partial engine failure in a single, oh, the engine has died, ok look for a landing area, good, got that, oh it's going again, so I'll turn a 180 and try to head back to the strip, oh no, it's failed again, now where was that grassy field, but if it was a straight out constant trim runaway, it would most likely have been caught sooner as there was training for that scenario.
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Have a look at the data released in the preliminary report for ET302 and see if you can work out what they were doing in the 2 minutes before MCAS came in. That would also be the MCAS they were supposed to have been informed about after the release of the bulletin by Boeing. There are a lot of factors to this one and although MCAS is a flawed concept and has to be fixed the aircraft around it is fine and actually very nice to operate.
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Takeoff roll began from runway 07R at a field elevation of 2333.5 m at approximately 05:38,
At 05:38:44, shortly after liftoff, the left and right recorded AOA values deviated
Although the prelim report does not contain details it is possible the crew determined the UAS to be due to AoA; from Boeing flow chart someone posted a while back. Double quoted so my comments stand out better:
If AoA sensor is failed high,stick shaker on failed side will activate on rotation accompanied by IAS/ALT disagree warning flags
If the pitch power and config are consistent with takeoff and the good side ASI agrees with the Standby ASI,then it is a false warning ----------- >If in any doubt execute the UAS NNC
If the pitch power and config are consistent with takeoff and the good side ASI agrees with the Standby ASI,then it is a false warning ----------- >If in any doubt execute the UAS NNC
The pilot with good side data becomes PF
Land immediately
At 05:39:22 and about 1,000 feet the left autopilot (AP) was engaged (it disengaged about 33 seconds later),
At 05:39:42, Level Change mode was engaged. The selected altitude was 32000 ft. Shortly after the mode change, the selected airspeed was set to 238 kt.
At 05:39:45, Captain requested flaps up and First-Officer acknowledged. One second later, flap handle moved from 5 to 0 degrees and flaps retraction began.
At 05:39:55, Autopilot disengaged,
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ICAO Annex 13 and the associated manual of accident/incident investigation clearly define the responsibilities and dissemination requirements for information including CVFDR Data. Ethiopea is a signatory to this (and all other) annexes to the convention. The international “aviation” community effectively “own” this information although it does of course imply that all States comply in full regarding these requirements.
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The procedure itself calls for disengagement of the Autopilot, use of Main Electric Trim (yoke trim switch) as necessary, disengagement of the Autothrottles, and if the runaway has not ceased, use of the stab trim cutout switches. Once all electric trim has been terminated, you would use manual trim as needed until landing.
Though it is not currently procedure, if you had a good idea that the problem really was MCAS (presumably because of an erroneous AOA or airspeed input), you could extend the flaps and restore the electric trim since MCAS only works with the flaps up. Technically, engaging the autopilot would also cause MCAS inputs to cease, however, our manuals contain warnings that the autopilot may not stay engaged with an erroneous AOA or airspeed.
A MCAS failure presents itself as runaway stab trim. This uncommanded motion can be caused by a number of different malfunctions, MCAS being only one of them. The runaway stab trim procedure is agnostic as to the underlying cause of the the malfunction.
The procedure itself calls for disengagement of the Autopilot, use of Main Electric Trim (yoke trim switch) as necessary, disengagement of the Autothrottles, and if the runaway has not ceased, use of the stab trim cutout switches. Once all electric trim has been terminated, you would use manual trim as needed until landing.
Though it is not currently procedure, if you had a good idea that the problem really was MCAS (presumably because of an erroneous AOA or airspeed input), you could extend the flaps and restore the electric trim since MCAS only works with the flaps up. Technically, engaging the autopilot would also cause MCAS inputs to cease, however, our manuals contain warnings that the autopilot may not stay engaged with an erroneous AOA or airspeed.
The procedure itself calls for disengagement of the Autopilot, use of Main Electric Trim (yoke trim switch) as necessary, disengagement of the Autothrottles, and if the runaway has not ceased, use of the stab trim cutout switches. Once all electric trim has been terminated, you would use manual trim as needed until landing.
Though it is not currently procedure, if you had a good idea that the problem really was MCAS (presumably because of an erroneous AOA or airspeed input), you could extend the flaps and restore the electric trim since MCAS only works with the flaps up. Technically, engaging the autopilot would also cause MCAS inputs to cease, however, our manuals contain warnings that the autopilot may not stay engaged with an erroneous AOA or airspeed.
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All aircraft experimental flight test campaigns uncover issues which were not expected during the design of the aircraft, and require some sort of change to rectify. In the case of the 747-8, it was outboard aileron flutter, which was corrected with a *GASP* software fix. The engineering team was lauded for creating a software-only fix which required no hardware changes.
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...iation-honors/
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...iation-honors/
The other difference is corporate culture. The 2nd most read article on the Seattle Times website is the appointment of a legal czar to deal with the B737 MAX fallout: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-appoints-legal-czar-to-oversee-fallout-from-fatal-max-crashes/
The first article celebrates the achievement of a young engineer, the second is all about hiding behind layers of corporate accountability, As the saying goes: success has a thousand fathers, but failure is an orphan.