Ethiopian airliner down in Africa
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RTM Boy, a great post. I'm wondering whether this will be Boeing's DH Comet moment, whereby a technological solution to a (possible) problem may be overtaken/overwhelmed by public opinion. The 737 Max may be an exceptional aircraft but it would take very little for the mood to markedly swing in the direction of the A321 NEO.
You obviously do not fly for bottom-rung airlines, with airframes destined for the desert in a couple of years. Count yourself lucky.
My bitch with Boeing is that even the Classic was a revision too far. Can you imagine using 1950s B-707 systems in the 21st century..? And then the NG was a double stretch too far. But then the Max? So these 1950s B-707 systems will still be running a century after they were designed? They are having a laugh, surely.
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I know the thread has focused on certain possible causes, and some have suggested that each of the suggested causes should be handled easily if the crew were adequately trained and professional. If there were additional factors involved (2 or 3 failures) then the chance of successful recover greatly diminishes ('western crew' or not!!). Take for example another Captain's experience in a Max 8 around the time of the Lion Air tragedy shown below. Yes, the problem below on it's own should never jeapordise a flight, but if it was happening at the same time as other malfunctions (eg. MCAS etc.), then the situation becomes much more dangerous.
After 1000 feet I noticed a decrease in aircraft performance. I picked up that the autothrottles were not moving to commanded position even though they were engaged. I'm sure they were set properly for takeoff but not sure when the discrepancy took place. My scan wasn't as well developed since I've only flown the MAX once before. I manually positioned the thrust levers ASAP. This resolved the threat, we were able to increase speed to clean up and continue the climb to 3000 feet.
Shortly afterwards I heard about the (other carrier) accident and am wondering if any other crews have experienced similar incidents with the autothrottle system on the MAX? Or I may have made a possible flying mistake which is more likely. The FO (First Officer) was still on his first month and was not able to identify whether it was the aircraft or me that was in error.
Shortly afterwards I heard about the (other carrier) accident and am wondering if any other crews have experienced similar incidents with the autothrottle system on the MAX? Or I may have made a possible flying mistake which is more likely. The FO (First Officer) was still on his first month and was not able to identify whether it was the aircraft or me that was in error.
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RTM Boy, a great post. I'm wondering whether this will be Boeing's DH Comet moment, whereby a technological solution to a (possible) problem may be overtaken/overwhelmed by public opinion. The 737 Max may be an exceptional aircraft but it would take very little for the mood to markedly swing in the direction of the A321 NEO.
just as fast as speculation fueled hysteria started - it will fade and joe public will go back to not caring in the least which variety of jet they are on.
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Canada joins the ban but the wording seems to allow the aircraft to be ferried (no passengers) back to home base.
Press Secretary
Office of the Honourable Marc Garneau
Minister of Transport, Ottawa
613-991-0700
[email protected]
Media Relations
Transport Canada, Ottawa
613-993-0055
[email protected]
Minister Garneau statement regarding restricting airspace to Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft
From: Transport CanadaStatement
March 13, 2019 Ottawa, Ontario Transport Canada
The Honourable Marc Garneau, Minister of Transport, issued the following statement today:
“My thoughts continue to go out to all those affected by the tragic aircraft accident involving an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
“Following advice from Transport Canada Civil Aviation experts, as a precautionary measure, I am issuing a safety notice to address this issue. This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any air operator, both domestic and foreign, of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft - from arriving, departing, or overflying Canadian airspace.
“This safety notice is effective immediately, and will remain in place until further notice.
“The advice the experts have provided is based on the information they have been receiving; the requirements for new procedures and training for Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 flight crews they have already put in place; and the latest information available from the incidents.
“It is too soon to speculate about the cause of the accident in Addis Ababa, and to make direct links to the Lion Air accident in Indonesia in October 2018; however, my department has been closely monitoring the investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority.
“Following the Lion Air accident, Transport Canada adopted the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Airworthiness Directive. It also required that Canadian airlines who operate the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, put new procedures in place and implement additional crew training.
“We were one of the first countries to do so and not all countries have implemented this change. And these Canadian requirements for new procedures and training to protect against the risk identified went above and beyond the measures directed by the United States Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing – and above and beyond what other nations have done.
“Canada has an enviable aviation safety record because of the professionalism and safety-first focus of Canada’s aviation industry – those who design and manufacture aircraft, those who maintain them, our airports, our air traffic controllers and of course those who operate and fly the aircraft. It also due to the world-class knowledge, expertise and relentless focus on safety by Transport Canada officials who are responsible for developing regulations and ensuring compliance with those regulations.
“My departmental officials continue to monitor the situation and I will not hesitate to take swift action, should we discover any additional safety issues.”
The Honourable Marc Garneau, Minister of Transport, issued the following statement today:
“My thoughts continue to go out to all those affected by the tragic aircraft accident involving an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
“Following advice from Transport Canada Civil Aviation experts, as a precautionary measure, I am issuing a safety notice to address this issue. This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any air operator, both domestic and foreign, of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft - from arriving, departing, or overflying Canadian airspace.
“This safety notice is effective immediately, and will remain in place until further notice.
“The advice the experts have provided is based on the information they have been receiving; the requirements for new procedures and training for Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 flight crews they have already put in place; and the latest information available from the incidents.
“It is too soon to speculate about the cause of the accident in Addis Ababa, and to make direct links to the Lion Air accident in Indonesia in October 2018; however, my department has been closely monitoring the investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority.
“Following the Lion Air accident, Transport Canada adopted the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Airworthiness Directive. It also required that Canadian airlines who operate the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, put new procedures in place and implement additional crew training.
“We were one of the first countries to do so and not all countries have implemented this change. And these Canadian requirements for new procedures and training to protect against the risk identified went above and beyond the measures directed by the United States Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing – and above and beyond what other nations have done.
“Canada has an enviable aviation safety record because of the professionalism and safety-first focus of Canada’s aviation industry – those who design and manufacture aircraft, those who maintain them, our airports, our air traffic controllers and of course those who operate and fly the aircraft. It also due to the world-class knowledge, expertise and relentless focus on safety by Transport Canada officials who are responsible for developing regulations and ensuring compliance with those regulations.
“My departmental officials continue to monitor the situation and I will not hesitate to take swift action, should we discover any additional safety issues.”
Contacts
Delphine DenisPress Secretary
Office of the Honourable Marc Garneau
Minister of Transport, Ottawa
613-991-0700
[email protected]
Media Relations
Transport Canada, Ottawa
613-993-0055
[email protected]
Search for related information by keyword: Transport Canada | Canada | Transport and infrastructure | general public | statements
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I'm just curious what will happen when it's completely clear that two totally serviceable airframes were wrecked (this might not be entirely fair to the ET309 crew) by less then competent crews. Will all these regulatory bodies require demonstrated proficiency in raw data flying across all phases of normal operations?
May I refer people once again to this podcast of D. P. Davies recounting some of the early problems when certificating the DH Comet (47 mins in) and the Boeing 707 (1hr 14mins in). Sometimes, designers and manufacturers take short cuts and sometimes the regulatory authority becomes 'too close' to the manufacturer. The 737 has morphed a long the way from a small shorthaul aircraft to something much larger, more powerful and with considerably greater range. This old 1960s design has needed many add-ons and modifications to achieve this. I do wonder whether this was a wise path to follow, and I also wonder whether the FAA has neglected to maintain sufficient distance when approving some of these changes.
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/aud...nnia-brabazon/
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/aud...nnia-brabazon/
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I'm just curious what will happen when it's completely clear that two totally serviceable airframes were wrecked (this might not be entirely fair to the ET309 crew) by less then competent crews. Will all these regulatory bodies require demonstrated proficiency in raw data flying across all phases of normal operations?
I would suggest instead of just cursoring past the top post on Rumours & News people should read it: BrandinettIB's Global Announcement - "Notice regarding post responsibility and anonymity. "PPRUNE will not guarantee your anonymity in such situations."
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From the Globe and Mail
Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis
PUBLISHED MARCH 13, 2019 UPDATED 13 MINUTES AGO - GEOFFREY YORK AFRICA BUREAU CHIEF JOHANNESBURG
QUOTE:
"Ethiopian Airlines has decided to send the black box from its crashed airplane to Europe for analysis, rather than to the United States where the Boeing 737 Max 8 was manufactured.
The decision, in defiance of U.S. requests, is the latest sign of the world’s growing distrust of the United States on aviation safety issues. While U.S. regulators and Boeing have continued to insist that the Max 8 is safe, most other countries have ordered the grounding of the aircraft, leaving the United States increasingly isolated on the safety issue."
Much appreciated if other members can post the link.
Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis
PUBLISHED MARCH 13, 2019 UPDATED 13 MINUTES AGO - GEOFFREY YORK AFRICA BUREAU CHIEF JOHANNESBURG
QUOTE:
"Ethiopian Airlines has decided to send the black box from its crashed airplane to Europe for analysis, rather than to the United States where the Boeing 737 Max 8 was manufactured.
The decision, in defiance of U.S. requests, is the latest sign of the world’s growing distrust of the United States on aviation safety issues. While U.S. regulators and Boeing have continued to insist that the Max 8 is safe, most other countries have ordered the grounding of the aircraft, leaving the United States increasingly isolated on the safety issue."
Much appreciated if other members can post the link.
Garneau's bafflegab seems to be hinting at crew training, that the Canadian industry is up to speed on the Max, but many other countries are not. Since he cannot discriminate against foreign carriers vs domestic ones, he's just shutting it down. Not sure the logic for ever opening up again - Canadian approval of all foreign carriers' training programs? Or just assurance that whatever mishandling or malfunction cannot ever happen again because of an additional layer of automation. He sounds like all the rest of the internet-whipped politicians instead of an engineer/astronaut.
Thread Starter
Ethiopia crash FDR/CVR recorders to go to Germany on insistence from Ethiopia investigators.
As noted Canada is grounding all of its Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft and banning the jet from entering its airspace until further notice as safety concerns continue to mount following the two crashes.
Air Canada WestJet and Sunwing all ground their jets.
Pressure will be on FAA to follow suit from widespread passenger booking cancellations in the USA and major corporate business travel accounts asking their clients to avoid flying on 737 MAX
Kayak Travel Agency booking search engine will have a ''I do not want to fly on a 737 Max'' option button.
As noted Canada is grounding all of its Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft and banning the jet from entering its airspace until further notice as safety concerns continue to mount following the two crashes.
Air Canada WestJet and Sunwing all ground their jets.
Pressure will be on FAA to follow suit from widespread passenger booking cancellations in the USA and major corporate business travel accounts asking their clients to avoid flying on 737 MAX
Kayak Travel Agency booking search engine will have a ''I do not want to fly on a 737 Max'' option button.
Small point but there are numerous modes and sub modes in most FBW aircraft software that are not taught and can influence the operation of the aircraft be it Boeing, Airbus or any other manufacturer.
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Poldek77: It does look as if one of them landed at Ankara. It disappeared off the plot when I was tracking it and i assumed it had continued to Dubai.
The other that was in the air at that time was OK-SWA and that one landed at Tunis at around 22:10.
I note the explanations provided by Dave Reid & quentinc; thanks for those.
The other that was in the air at that time was OK-SWA and that one landed at Tunis at around 22:10.
I note the explanations provided by Dave Reid & quentinc; thanks for those.
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Single signal used
I have a long experience with the safety of nuclear power reactors and their operation. We often have three requirements on a critical measured value.
1. At least three sensors should be in use and some kind of voting system selecting the most reliable signal. Redundancy-
2. In the optimal case all thre sensors should be based on different principles in order to avoid common cause errors.. Diversificaltion
Perhaps this kind of safety philosophy is too expensive to be used in modern commercial aricraft? All the required parts must be available today,.
1. At least three sensors should be in use and some kind of voting system selecting the most reliable signal. Redundancy-
2. In the optimal case all thre sensors should be based on different principles in order to avoid common cause errors.. Diversificaltion
Perhaps this kind of safety philosophy is too expensive to be used in modern commercial aricraft? All the required parts must be available today,.
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From the Globe and Mail
Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis
PUBLISHED MARCH 13, 2019 UPDATED 13 MINUTES AGO - GEOFFREY YORK AFRICA BUREAU CHIEF JOHANNESBURG
QUOTE:
"Ethiopian Airlines has decided to send the black box from its crashed airplane to Europe for analysis, rather than to the United States where the Boeing 737 Max 8 was manufactured.
The decision, in defiance of U.S. requests, is the latest sign of the world’s growing distrust of the United States on aviation safety issues. While U.S. regulators and Boeing have continued to insist that the Max 8 is safe, most other countries have ordered the grounding of the aircraft, leaving the United States increasingly isolated on the safety issue."
Much appreciated if other members can post the link.
Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis
PUBLISHED MARCH 13, 2019 UPDATED 13 MINUTES AGO - GEOFFREY YORK AFRICA BUREAU CHIEF JOHANNESBURG
QUOTE:
"Ethiopian Airlines has decided to send the black box from its crashed airplane to Europe for analysis, rather than to the United States where the Boeing 737 Max 8 was manufactured.
The decision, in defiance of U.S. requests, is the latest sign of the world’s growing distrust of the United States on aviation safety issues. While U.S. regulators and Boeing have continued to insist that the Max 8 is safe, most other countries have ordered the grounding of the aircraft, leaving the United States increasingly isolated on the safety issue."
Much appreciated if other members can post the link.
Here you are:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...-737-max-8-to/
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I'm confused about the FR24 reference, though. Their subscription plans grid does indeed state that Gold members get access to geometric height, but I've just replayed a selection of Max 8 flights (Air Canada, Icelandair and LOT) and for every one the GPS altitude on screen stays stubbornly on "N/A".
Diversification,
Indeed yes, I think you make an important and very valid point. I am surprised the FAA allowed this single point path to be approved.
Indeed yes, I think you make an important and very valid point. I am surprised the FAA allowed this single point path to be approved.
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Bristol Britannia
May I refer people once again to this podcast of D. P. Davies recounting some of the early problems when certificating the DH Comet (47 mins in) and the Boeing 707 (1hr 14mins in). Sometimes, designers and manufacturers take short cuts and sometimes the regulatory authority becomes 'too close' to the manufacturer.
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/aud...nnia-brabazon/
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/aud...nnia-brabazon/
Love the story in this interview, about spinning a Viscount. (10 min in).
And then doing a flick roll and spin in a Britannia.
I presume they then went to the nearest gentlemen’s outfitter.....
Silver
A Britannia....
Last edited by silverstrata; 13th Mar 2019 at 18:17.