Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

[RoyHudd]

Absolutely right SLFinAZ. (3 entries above) Pilot experience levels and standards are rock bottom in so many places.The poor saps simply are not trained adequately on today's complex jets. Blame the accountants, the airline management, and even the operational and training management.

It was always about making bucks. But safety used to be of paramount importance. No longer.

[11K-AVML]

Originally Posted by ChicoG

Holland has joined in.

https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buit...adar-omdraaien

Is the European regulator doing this? There is also news that Turkish Airlines are grounding them (not yet confirmed).

Doubt EASA will move until the curve is well ahead of them.

[dirk85]

Also Italy banning the Max as of 2100 local today.

[hans brinker]

Originally Posted by gmx

I think its important to remember that the Lion crew kept the aircraft reasonably steady for 6 minutes after MCAS issues presented, continuously and manually counteracting the MCAS nose down events that occurred during that whole time. The crew knew they had a stabilizer runaway b/c they kept using the electric trim to correct it. They kept the aircraft basically level at 5000 feet for that 6 minute duration, until, for the last four MCAS nose down commands, the crew's manual trim responses occur but are just "blipped" (not sufficient to counteract the MCAS input), and assumedly resulted in the stabilizer being full forward.


No one knows why the crew were able to successfully counteract MCAS with manual trim operation for 6 minutes, and then fail to do so for the final 4 MCAS inputs. That is the mystery that we are hoping the CVR will explain.


Lastly, as I understand it, MCAS only dials in *ONE* nose-down increment (2 degrees or whatever it is) and then deactivates itself, until something happens to reactivate MCAS allowing it to dial in another increment. I can't recall all of the crew activities that result in MCAS being reactivated, but I believe one is operation of the manual trim. This is why the last four "blipped" manual trim inputs in the Lion flight result in four unmitigated MCAS nose-down events, because any manual trim input resets MCAS and allows it to reasses the AoA / speed picture and dial in another MCAS trim input.

I remember reading that the captain transferred control after 6 minutes. He had been making large trim inputs successfully counteracting MCAS. The FO made much smaller trim inputs, so they ended up with full AND trim.

Also I think if MCAS still senses high AOA after the 5sec pause, it will make another up to 10 second trim input.

Some people say this would confuse the pilot because it is intermittent and not continuous runaway trim. I feel 10sec trim should definitely be seen by the pilot as way too long, and acted upon as runaway trim, especially if it keeps doing it repeatedly.

[Organfreak]

Originally Posted by 22/04

The US seems to be out of step if anything by still insisting on more experience- I am surprised commercial pressure hasn't led to the same there.
Aeroplanes must be built such that they can be flown by these crews - safely operated all over the world. As I said yesterday, I am not sure certification bodies are doing their duty here.

Standards were raised (required hours) here in the U.S. after the Colgan crash in response to a huge public outcry.

[threemiles]

MCAS AD Note

Originally Posted by SigWit

Because this is an accident that strikes close resemblance to another very recent accident -with brand new airplanes- where a faulty system was the root cause, and that system is still not fixed.

FAA says when then new MCAS software is certified and out it shall be implemented by an AD Note. I am not sure this is the right sequence if FAA feels something is very critical. Because the interim AD had nothing in it but hot air it reads like the MCAS problem is minor. Now they say it deserves implementation of the fix by AD note not by Service Bulletin. Again, this smells and the FAA does not seem to act logical and independantly but rather as the long arm of Boeing and US commercial interests. A logical step would be a grounding order by FAA until the fix can be implemented.

[dougydog]

Shame these guys didn`t monitor their speed a little better...MCAS was the result. And `rushed` in perhaps? The law of unintended consequences. Bit like the locking of flight deck door...

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aar-...september-2007

As I understand it, some at Boeing couldn`t understand how, with 82 knots seen during the recovery, the aeroplane didn`t crash. It was literally hanging on the engines at full power.

[Icarus2001]

To certify a system that directly controls primary flight surfaces AND that is reliant on a single..

MCAS controls the stab trim.

Stab trim is not a primary flight control.

[rog747]

Korea and Turkey ground all their Max fleets, The TK a/c en-route to UK and EU have all turned back.

Norwegian have said we have more than 110 Boeing 737–800 aircraft in its fleet, which is not affected by this temporary suspension of our MAX fleet.
This evening's transatlantic's back to Europe on their MAX are all cancelled.
But tomorrow's EDI - NYC is still showing as operating with a MAX, so this will be canx or pax put on a 738.

Meanwhile - over on the Atlas 767 down thread
NTSB gets FDR readout shows full forward control column input - and full thrust applied on both engines.

Gosh what a week.

[threemiles]

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

MCAS controls the stab trim.

Stab trim is not a primary flight control.

This is the pilot's view. The aerodynamic view is that it directly affects attitude, drag and lift, so it is primary. Trim systems are treated as such during certification.

[oleczek]

LOT and Poland joins in grounding/ban

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by threemiles

This is the pilot's view. The aerodynamic view is that it directly affects attitude, drag and lift, so it is primary.

You could make the same argument for flaps being classed as primary flight controls, but they aren't either. A stabilator is, though.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Flight_Controls

[MrsDoubtfire]

Originally Posted by FanControl

The Domino Effect.

Austria also locks out the MAX
https://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaf...eing-737-Max-8
Closed airspace also in Germany - order of the ministry of transport and not EASA
Deutschland sperrt Luftraum für Boeing 737 Max 8 - SPIEGEL ONLINE

[Farrell]

Boeing’s passive voice responses to all of this is reminiscent of how they dealt with the accidents involving the faulty rudders on the 737s years ago.
One supposes if blame is pointed their way that they will pay compensation without admitted guilt. Big business. Our deaths get factored into the number crunches.

[threemiles]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

You could make the same argument for flaps being classed as primary flight controls, but they aren't either. A stabilator is, though.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Flight_Controls

Flaps and slats are not controls. Stab trim is an indirect control that is not driven by the yoke (direct control) but by a wheel. Its aerodynamic effect is the same though differently scaled.
Certification of flaps and slats is along the same principles when it comes to an automated aircraft system retracting or driving them.
​​​​​​

[rog747]

The ET CEO speaks to Quest on CNN live and he tells that his 737 MAX crew just after take off on Sunday radioed they had flight control problems.

Another message at 08.44 (6 mins after TO) the pilot asked for a clearance to return to base which he was given - again citing Flight Control problems - then the 737 was lost off radar

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

Why don't you ask the Ethiopians?
It's their investigation.
They'll either want to do it in house, or somewhere else, based on their view on what gets the best results.

the Ethiopians don’t have a good track record of maintaining investigations that are reputable or even believable. They don’t abide by their own air laws, the airline is state owned. Any mistake on their part, whether maintenance, crew competence/training or fatigue will be swept under the floor mat. This will be blamed on something or a chain of events outside of Ethiopia.

[Swiss51]

EASA

EASA just closed the entire European airspace for B737-8 and -9 MAX

[EDLB]

@4runner There will be a FDR readout and a CVR transscript. I assume it will be clear enough on the root cause regardless what the interpretation of the parties with money involved are.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by Swiss51

EASA just closed the entire European airspace for B737-8 MAX

Yep, at 19Z today:

“As a precautionary measure, EASA has published today an Airworthiness Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all flight operations of all Boeing Model 737-8 MAX and 737-9 MAX aeroplanes in Europe."

"In addition EASA has published a Safety Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all commercial flights performed by third-country operators into, within or out of the EU of the above mentioned models.”