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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:49
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
When I did my 737 type rating some years ago the vastly experienced CFI told us that Boeing's original design philosophy on the type was that it could be safely and efficiently operated by an experienced Captain and a third-world PPL.
Sure, but the experienced Captains have long since retired and the third world PPLs have upgraded to the left seat. And for that matter the first world PPLs are not much better.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:52
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Not a pilot, but an engineer here.
That the MCAS system was relying solely on one sensor and not cascade to backup sensors or other checkpoint data, too.... well, it almost sounds to me that Boeing went rouge from their philosophy and instead errantly took a page from Airbus' philosophy, trying to fully automate the plane, and half-assed the entire logic and failed miserably. Otherwise, this MCAS system seems criminally designed, not to mention the lack of instruction in their Flight Manual.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:54
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Originally Posted by quentinc
but G-TUMB is still flying on. Clearly TUI know what they are doing, but to a casual reader, the CAA directive looks pretty clear.
Landing will not be denied to aircraft already inbound.
Only those not UK based will turn around as they would not be able to depart again.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:05
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High horses and such

Originally Posted by Escape Velocity
Next, basic airmanship: ...I can handle the airplane all day long without an altimeter or airspeed indicator (in VMC conditions)
Really?
Have you tried?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:05
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I've got a basic question on the level of training for an MPL. Does the simulator work include/require a demonstrated ability to fly and land on raw data only? Same thing for Captain upgrade for ET?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:08
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Looks like the Aussies joined the ban
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:12
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Originally Posted by Dont Hang Up
Landing will not be denied to aircraft already inbound.
Only those not UK based will turn around as they would not be able to depart again.
TK-LCG has turned back several hours into the flight and it's on it's way back to Istanbul.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:14
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Originally Posted by Smythe
Looks like the Aussies joined the ban
Germany as well!
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:16
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AoA display

AoA is a fundamental parameter in aerodynamic lift generation, it should be displayed to flight crew in airlines.

The AoA/G awareness training mandated for all EASA pilots that start training from the end of 2019 as part of the new mandatory UPRT package for professional licence issue is long overdue.

AoA/G awareness training cannot be done in a Simulator. Anyone who does not understand this needs to do a UPRT course.

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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:17
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Originally Posted by El Bunto
The V-22 took 18 years to reach IOC from date of first flight. If airliners followed a similar length of development I reckon they'd be pretty well debugged, too...

In contrast the 737 Max was certificated and entered service within 16 *months*.
after the 787 farce, you would think they would have learned not to rush this stuff?

I'm not sure who to blame here, FAA seem all too keen to pass Boeing's stuff without enough scrutiny..
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:20
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CAA: "[...]after 1300 hrs on 12 March 2019 [...] [the affected models of] aircraft registered in the UK are not to be flown anywhere."
G-TUMB departed ALC at 1307.

"Oops. Sorry,er, the captain's watch was slow."
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:20
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Yesterday about 24 hours ago I checked how many 737 Max 8 were in flight - there was 145 around the world. Today there are currently 102.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:21
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France and Ireland have joined the ban.
Are there any news from first recorder readouts available? Must be something going on?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:23
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Originally Posted by Tech Guy
Going back to the statement about the Co Pilot having 200 hours exerience. Was this total, or on type?
I was under the impression you needed minimum 400 hours for a commercial licence and 1500 for ATPL
How are you allowef to fly a passenger jet with below the minimum required, or is Ethiopian licencing somewhat more lax regarding hours/experience.
The FO had an MPL not an ATPL, The program provides for 70 hours of actual flight time and 130 hours of simulator training. From an earlier post of a pilot who actually flew with ET he stated that most MPL holders had roughly 230 total hours before they were released to Line (vs. Training) captains.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:33
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RE: Comments that the pilots don't know how to fly. If this was true the issue would not be concentrated on this aircraft.

RE: Comments that flights should continue until the problem is identified. This is backwards and people who believe this obviously don't understand basic risk management. The fact that you may be a pilot is irrelevant, pilots are not trained in data analysis and risk and a lot of you seem to be allowing your personal politics and biases come into your opinions.

The correct approach is to ground the craft until faults are identified, the idea that the craft should continue flying until we discover the fault is backwards and seems to be a common line of thought nowadays amongst people who like to think that they are scientific but do not understand data analysis.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:34
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I find it mildly irritating that folks here warn about putting the blame on MCAS prematurely while at the same time it seems to be perfectly legit to point the finger at this poor FO without the slightest hint that he has done anything wrong or could have stopped the aircraft from falling out of the blue sunny sky with more hours under his belt (which, btw, begs the question: how many more hours?)
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:34
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What surprises me most, since the Lion Air crash, is how very very very far Boeing and the FAA are behind in this. Historically Boeing has often been ahead of events (having the benefit of validated information of course). Viewed from the outside this is a watershed in Boeing culture. In the coming years we will find out if this has anything to do with the move to Chicago, or that they have just been surprised and startled by social media speed.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:42
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Boeing just delivered a 737 Max 8 (C-FAXD) yesterday from Seattle to Toronto (Sunwing with PH livery), so it doesn't look like they have grounded anything from their end for now.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:45
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UK CAA as I read it:
"as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder,
we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace."

Which sounds logical because they are not in the direct line of the investigation. The recorder(s) are probably under way to either NTSB or BEA or ... And the UK AAIB/CAA will not be present at the first readout(s) (hoping that they can be read).

You would think that when FDR information comes available they would compare that with the Lion Air case and investigation and design discussions associated with that. And based on that comparison every party informed will decide on lifting a ban or making it less temporary.

Next to this you would at least expect a press release by EASA stating they are following events ... that individual countries can make a decision ... and list the status of the decision by individual EU countries.

Last edited by A0283; 12th Mar 2019 at 16:02.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:53
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So, is the CAA taking action on the basis of objective evidence, or is it being driven by social media and apparent public opinion?
Probably a bit of both- sooner or later TUI pax were probably not going to get on a Max. Just being prudent until more is known.

while at the same time it seems to be perfectly legit to point the finger at this poor FO without the slightest hint that he has done anything wrong
Just for the record my posts are not criticising the FO or the system - just letting folks know how it is - some in the USA do not seem to realise.

Last edited by 22/04; 12th Mar 2019 at 15:54. Reason: spelling
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