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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:35
  #981 (permalink)  
 
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Without passengers they can fly anywhere anytime I believe ?
Not correct - you need to look at the directives that have been issued by each specific State or bloc, relating both to the aircraft type and to use of the States' airspace by those types.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:35
  #982 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
The various grounding decisions are a mystery to me. Last night, a pair of Smartwings 737Max aircraft failed to complete their flights to Prague. One diverted into Tunis while the other returned from Turkish air space to its origin in Dubai. I made the assumption then that this maybe because they were not going to be allowed into European air space. Now, this morning, I see another Smartwings 737Max en route from Vilnius to Prague.
I also noticed that despite the ban from Indian air space, there was more than one Spicejet 737Max in and around India and this morning there was another couple of them heading for Indian airports, including 1 domestic flight. When is a ban not a ban?
The EASA ban allows for 3 re-positioning flights, without passengers, to allow the planes to be in a position to work on any modifications required.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:37
  #983 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
When is a ban not a ban?
The EASA restriction, as I noted several posts back, does not apply to positioning flights back to base, only to commercial services.

I don't think Smart Wings operates VNO-PRG and even if they did, the flight number (TVS420P) is a giveaway that it's positioning empty.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:46
  #984 (permalink)  
 
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Ok this could be a dumb non pilot question in which case the mods can deal with is but here goes. There had been a lot of talk about the MCAS software design and its possible limitations. But just as pilots need to get hours in the simulator doesn't the software itself have to do the same thing? Ie: would mcas have had to endure endless hours of simulator training with real people testing its limits?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:48
  #985 (permalink)  
 
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Iím one of the few who have no issues flying on the MAX. All MAX pilots know about the MCAS and how to correct upsets.
MCAS works as advertised. Itís just a poorly designed system that acts on faulty information.
Denying aircraft in the air the right to complete the flights before grounding them is a major overreaction.
Itís plain silly.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:56
  #986 (permalink)  
 
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To restore confidence in the aircraft - what?

Three AOA sensors inputting to MCAS two of which must agree.

Limitation to the forward trim provided by MCAS?

They would do it for me. How difficult/expensive to fit/retrofit.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:20
  #987 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
The various grounding decisions are a mystery to me. Last night, a pair of Smartwings 737Max aircraft failed to complete their flights to Prague. One diverted into Tunis while the other returned from Turkish air space to its origin in Dubai. I made the assumption then that this maybe because they were not going to be allowed into European air space. Now, this morning, I see another Smartwings 737Max en route from Vilnius to Prague.
I also noticed that despite the ban from Indian air space, there was more than one Spicejet 737Max in and around India and this morning there was another couple of them heading for Indian airports, including 1 domestic flight. When is a ban not a ban?
Probably not correct - it seems that they landed in Ankara instead
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f...s1201#1fc767d2
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:23
  #988 (permalink)  
 
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Three AOA sensors inputting to MCAS two of which must agree.

Limitation to the forward trim provided by MCAS?

They would do it for me. How difficult/expensive to fit/retrofit.
Prob just a software upgrade. FCC A & B should have a crosstalk bus between the 2. Boeing boffins are probably working on a solution now in order to ensure a single sensor failure does not impact safe aircraft operating envelopes. Both sensors will prob be voted/compared if they weren't previously, or the MCAS deactivated.

Single sensor inputs compared over crosstalk buses between aircraft system computers (redundancies) for the purpose of voting/comparison have often been used in the past. Not sure why single AOA inputs to the FCC were not voted in the first place (if this is the case).
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:24
  #989 (permalink)  
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Three AOA sensors inputting to MCAS two of which must agree.
Unless the system is programmed to use the information from the faulty sensor by commanding the aircraft to resolve an incorrectly perceived situation.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:28
  #990 (permalink)  
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AoA Sensor

Am I right? Is the MCAS-System fed by the signal of only one AoA-Sensor?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:36
  #991 (permalink)  
 
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I was wondering why there have been no official investigation releases quoted here. So took a peak at the Ethiopian CAA website.

+++

Accident Investigation - Information - civilaviation

Accident Investigation

The Ethiopian Civil Aviation Accident Prevention and Investigation Bureau has been established with the following objectives:

∑ Conducting a thorough investigation

∑ Identify all root causes of the Accident

∑ Formulate safety recommendations

∑ Preventing a recurrence

∑ Avoiding apportion blame

and the department's role is to:

∑ Investigate aircraft Accident and Incidents That Occurred in Ethiopian airspace related that Occurred in Ethiopian airspace related To Civil Aircraft operations and publish reports on the final results in a accordance with Ethiopian Legislation and International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Annex-13

∑ Prevent aircraft Accidents and Incidents and improve Aviation Safety by determining the cause Safety Recommendations intended to prevent recurrence.

∑ Assure all facts and circumstances leading to an accident or incident are recorded (data base) and evaluated and that action is taken to prevent similar occurrence in the future.

∑ Follow up implementation of Aviation Safety Recommendations.

+++
and when you look at:

News - civilaviation no news on this accident

Press Release - civilaviation is empty

+++
I am missing something? You would expect them to post on their own website who is leading the investigation and what parties are involved. And for example what the moves are on the flight recorders.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:37
  #992 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KB View Post
Am I right? Is the MCAS-System fed by the signal of only one AoA-Sensor?
One would hope not. BUT even the Trident of the 60s had three of everything critical !
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:38
  #993 (permalink)  
 
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Re the FAA and grounding I wonder if the FAA would be reluctant to ground an Airbus with the same situation !!
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:53
  #994 (permalink)  
 
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usually a debris trail stretching back miles, or absence thereof, is a huge clue to air-crash investigators. Any information yet on whether debris has been found miles from the crash site yet?

G
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:59
  #995 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't expect that website to update any time soon, seeing as their latest new post in more than a year ago. Any initial reporting of new will probably come through press releases by the participating foreign investigators. Local results will most probably be wrapped up for a good while unfortunately. Might try to get any info by calling or fax though:
T:+251 11 6650200
F: 251 11 6650281
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:00
  #996 (permalink)  
 
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Yes. I guess it isn't only in Europe, that government departments don't have the money to update their websites. You won't find much information on the NTSB site, about this investigation either.

However https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/co.../press-release was providing updates... until they found the Flight Data Recorders. No update since then for some reason.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:03
  #997 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Yes, although AFAIK the altitudes on FR24 always come from Airborne Position messages, which in turn always contain baro alt.
They present both in the web UI, which they call Calibrated Altitude ( barometric ) and GPS Altitude. Edit: apparently this is only visible to Gold and Business subscribers. Sorry plebs

But I haven't dug into their export data to see if they provide both in the downloads. I'll have a look now.
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FR24_alts.png (27.1 KB, 37 views)
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:06
  #998 (permalink)  
 
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Where are the pieces

Information is slow in coming. Eye witness statements of articles and debris falling from the aircraft before final impact should have been confirmed, if true, by recovery of such material. Important question for news media covering the accident; did the aircraft strike anything between takeoff and final resting place? Where was the first item belonging to the aircraft found? If there is any validity to the ads-b data, there was a lot of vertical oscillation close to the ground. It would be possible, admittedly unlikely, that the aircraft struck something prior to the final crash. It's is also possible for the witnesses to be wrong. In any case, there is already more information available to those that know what question to ask. For example, the photo circulating of one of the engines. Looks to have been turning at high speed when it hit the ground. Experts have already no doubt, a rough idea of the speed it was turning when it stopped.

Pressure is building over this accident. Information is not flowing and individuals and groups that are lobbying and withholding are going to suffer consequences.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:10
  #999 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post
Not correct - you need to look at the directives that have been issued by each specific State or bloc, relating both to the aircraft type and to use of the States' airspace by those types.
The EASA directive bans the type from taking off landing or Entering EU airspace with or without passengers.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:12
  #1000 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by artee View Post
I think I remember forgetting this before... but as it appears that some of the problems with the 737 Max 8 seem to stem from overextending/overevolving an old-ish plane with short legs, why didn't Boeing develop the 757 instead. More modern plane, longer legs (taller u/c) etc?
Genuine question.
The 757 would not be cost competitive. It was built with performance in mind. To this day there is nothing available with the same runway and range ability. Need to takeoff on a 30C day with 5700 foot runway an fly 2000 miles with a full load of 199 people the 757 is the only game in town. That performance comes at a substantial cost. If the runway is 8000 feet long newer aircraft can do the mission for ⅔ the seat mile cost.
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