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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 12th Mar 2019, 21:39
  #821 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oldoberon View Post
my quote tells you LANCS THINKS it is in the Lion Air thread, which is why I started my post off with IF IT IS TRUE..
Oldeberon
Thank you Oldeberon. My recollection has subsequently been validated. It would appear my technical details were incorrect, in so far as it being the FCCs that are cycled - as opposed to their input AOA sensors.... Interesting to note that after a full power-off, FCC1=>AOA1 is always the first used. Same scenario for both flights?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 21:43
  #822 (permalink)  
 
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In my experience, I was under the impression that if automation was likely to be causing a problem, you reduce the level of automation. It appears from what I’m reading, that it is when the autopilot is disconnected that the MCAS becomes armed. Personally I think this goes against the philosophy most pilots understand, whether or not it is applicable to this accident. I’m only Boeing/Gulfstream btw.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 21:50
  #823 (permalink)  
 
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12MAR 20:35
European Countries applying B737-8 MAX and B737-9 MAX Airspace Restrictions

AO's are informed that below mentioned European States are not accepting entry into their airspace of any airline operating their flight with B737-8 MAX and B737-9 MAXtype of aircraft.

Please find the list of valid NOTAMs below :

NOTAM B0386/19 refers for UK/Northern Ireland ACC.
NOTAM B0235/19 for Irish ACC.
NOTAM A0612/19 for Vienna ACC.
NOTAM F0373/19 for all French ACCs.
NOTAM A0822/19 for Belgian ACC.
NOTAM A0177/19 for all German ACCs.
NOTAM C0206/19 refers for Warsaw ACC.
NOTAM B1615/19 for Canary ACC.
NOTAM A1673/19 for all Italian ACCs.
NOTAM A0333/19 for Amsterdam ACC.
NOTAM B1614/19 for all Spanish ACCs.
NOTAM A0499/19 for Vilnius ACC.
NOTAM A0123/19 for Swiss ACCs.
NOTAM A0253/19 for Slovenian ACC.
NOTAM A0355/19 for Cyprus ACC.
NOTAM G0036/19 for Tbilisi ACC.



Please note that B737 800 is not affected by this.


NMOC Brussels
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 21:53
  #824 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FCeng84 View Post
The 737 is not a fly-by-wire airplane and thus does not have an augmented elevator command when flying manually.
The 737 is very much fly-by-wire - big thick 5mm steel wires.

.
Originally Posted by FCeng84 View Post
As mentioned via earlier posts in this thread, modifications to MCAS have been developed and will be out to the fleet this spring to improve MCAS safety. One of the key factors is removing the assumption that the crew, having activated manual trim, will provide complete manual trim to zero column force.
What Boeing REALLY needs to do is have multiple inputs to the MCAS, so it is not reliant on a single AoA sensor. At the very least MCAS needs to drop out if it senses a mismatch between the AoA sensors, and just flag an error-fault. The last thing MCAS should be doing is activating its protocols, when it must know that the AoA sensors are in disagreement.

Silver
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 21:56
  #825 (permalink)  
 
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The last B38M Smartwings revenue flight QS1201/TVS1201 has been caught off-guard over the Black Sea. Flying circles, nowhere to land...
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:02
  #826 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Albino View Post
You may well believe it's that simple. There are plenty of distractions in the real world from ATC, terrain, weather/turbulence etc. That's before the stick shaker activates and the autopilot disconnects. Whilst you are trying to work out why that has happened (because it could be a variety of reasons) and fly the aircraft (including trimming), the aircraft is working against you. And this aircraft trims automatically on every departure, often against you.

Sat typing at a keyboard it appears obvious. All pilots will be able to tell you the memory items.
I fully agree that it might not work out as simply as the words I provided above might lead one to believe. As you say the stick shaker may be going off (probably would be if MCAS is active as both are driven by having high indicated AOA) and there might also be unreliable airspeed indication to deal with.

Two important things to keep in mind with MCAS:
- It will not activate with flaps down and thus will not be active on climbout until the flaps are retracted. If there is a gross AOA error (as on Lion Air) the stick shaker will be firing as soon as you get into the air. With this scenario you get a heads up that something is wrong with AOA before experiencing MCAS.
- If you continue to fly the airplane with the column and followup with pilot pitch trim to drive the column forces to zero you will have plenty of pitch control authority to fly your intended path.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:04
  #827 (permalink)  
 
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The last B38M Smartwings revenue flight QS1201/TVS1201 has been caught off-guard over the Black Sea. Flying circles, nowhere to land..
Not really. It departed Dubai hours ago and surely has not been caught off guard when approaching EU airspace.

QS4160 SID-PRG is taking a very unusual routing, currently heading in the direction of Malta.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:04
  #828 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by adr View Post
I've not seen the EASA notice, but can you help me to understand how the CAA one permits a positioning flight? Does "must not be flown" (2.1a, 2.1b) mean something different to the interpretation I'm giving it?
Good question.

The CAA's initial announcement of the restriction on its website and its Twitter feed (both still up) say specifically "[we have] issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace." See UK Civil Aviation Authority statement.

I agree that the Safety Directive (which I hadn't seen) appears not to allow any flights at all (even though the EASA Emergency AD does).

I guess the proof of the pudding will be whether that TUI Max 8 does in fact position back to the UK.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:09
  #829 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by virginblue View Post
Not really. It departed Dubai hours ago and surely has not been caught off guard when approaching EU airspace.

QS4160 SID-PRG is taking a very unusual routing, currently heading in the direction of Malta.
I disagree. Dubai-Prague flue normal route until it was denied entry to European a/s. Had to do some cicles over water until they seemingly negotiated their landing at IST.
UPD. The poor guys are still circling closer to Turkish coast.

Last edited by Pilot DAR; 13th Mar 2019 at 01:59. Reason: Removed Tel Aviv remark for no value.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:25
  #830 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by silverstrata View Post

What Boeing REALLY needs to do is have multiple inputs to the MCAS, so it is not reliant on a single AoA sensor. At the very least MCAS needs to drop out if it senses a mismatch between the AoA sensors, and just flag an error-fault. The last thing MCAS should be doing is activating its protocols, when it must know that the AoA sensors are in disagreement.

Silver
This I entirely agree with and have stated previously myself! Why would critical software ever rely on unverified data from one single item of hardware? It doesn't make sense. If you have foolproof and fail safe redundancy then throw on whatever software that you want. The software only acts on the data, if the data's always good then the software always does what it's meant to do. You don't build a luxury palace on sand, you put in solid foundations first- safe and secure infrastructure then the luxury add-ons.

How can an aircraft's certification be reliant on one single AoA vane always functioning correctly? I know it's been brought up about Airbus having 3 sources, but if you designed it correctly, you could have 100 mini AoA sensors for this function, and only let the software control flight surfaces when at least say 60 are in agreement! The software isn't the problem, the problem is the fact that the software relies on a single data source that isn't verified. Others have commented about the AoA being cross-checked against ASI etc. before making control inputs, that would be a good start.

AND... if you're going to throw in different functions and automated controls onto an aircraft, please have the decency to let the professional crew know what they are and how they work first, just in case they do something they shouldn't!

P.S. How many backdoor, certification reliant, automated controls are there that can function when AP is off? Or is MCAS the the only one so far?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:26
  #831 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
MCAS is because of the aerodynamic effect of the bigger engines, they create "lift" at high AOA, leading to even higher AOA. Nothing to do with the engine power.
it sure as hell takes increased engine power to maintain that AOA increase
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:26
  #832 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jantar99 View Post
I disagree. Dubai-Prague flue normal route until it was denied entry to European a/s. Had to do some cicles over water until they seemingly negotiated their landing at IST.
I said that they were not caught off guard so there should have been no reason to circle over the Black Sea to find out what to do. European airspace has now been closed for more than 2 hours which gave them (or tather QS ops) plenty of time to come up with a solution.

TVS4160 is not heading towards Tel Aviv. It is now circling near Malta.

Given that both planes are not descending, maybe QS is negotiating for a waiver but wants them to be near IST and MLA in case that it does not come forward.

Last edited by Pilot DAR; 13th Mar 2019 at 02:00. Reason: Removed Tel Aviv remark for no value.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:28
  #833 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jantar99 View Post
The last B38M Smartwings revenue flight QS1201/TVS1201 has been caught off-guard over the Black Sea. Flying circles, nowhere to land...
Still flying circles at 34,000 feet near Istanbul.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:29
  #834 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SteinarN View Post
Still flying circles at 34,000 feet near Istanbul.
TVS4160 Circling south of Malta at 37000ft aswell.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:30
  #835 (permalink)  
 
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Here is the question. I've posed this to three friends that are on Max fleets... "If this happened to you a week ago, would you be dead?" (2 captains, 1 F.O.) the answers ranged from "probably" to "yes"..... The most important question followed "have you reported this anonymously to at least your company?" Yes they have and to their national aviation authority.... We are in a period of public hysteria, but, us professionals are doing it right. If the media catches this, so be it, we ain't skygods no more.... Ask your friends the same question.

Hugs

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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:38
  #836 (permalink)  
 
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The 737 incurs a pitch up moment with additional thrust because of engine placement and moment. Not because of “lift”. I’m glad you’re working on your multi engine ratings right now and went over vmc factors including accelerated induced flow.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:39
  #837 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Farrell View Post
Boeing’s passive voice responses to all of this is reminiscent of how they dealt with the accidents involving the faulty rudders on the 737s years ago.
One supposes if blame is pointed their way that they will pay compensation without admitted guilt. Big business. Our deaths get factored into the number crunches.
Perhaps, but one has to ponder that the inevitable class action arising from both crashes, along with the evaporation of sales, will certainly test the theory of “Too big to fail”.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:43
  #838 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SteinarN View Post
Still flying circles at 34,000 feet near Istanbul.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f...s1201#1fc767d2
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:44
  #839 (permalink)  
 
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QS 4160 seems to have made up its mind to go somewhere...
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 22:50
  #840 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
QS 4160 seems to have made up its mind to go somewhere...
Strange to see those two aircraft holding at that level and at that time of night. Either more airspace has just denied them access or the company is asking them to divert or return to base. Feel for the pax!
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