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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:07
  #761 (permalink)  
 
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LOT and Poland joins in grounding/ban
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:11
  #762 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by threemiles View Post
This is the pilot's view. The aerodynamic view is that it directly affects attitude, drag and lift, so it is primary.
You could make the same argument for flaps being classed as primary flight controls, but they aren't either. A stabilator is, though.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Flight_Controls
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:20
  #763 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FanControl View Post
The Domino Effect.
Austria also locks out the MAX
https://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaf...eing-737-Max-8
Closed airspace also in Germany - order of the ministry of transport and not EASA
Deutschland sperrt Luftraum für Boeing 737 Max 8 - SPIEGEL ONLINE
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:25
  #764 (permalink)  
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Boeing’s passive voice responses to all of this is reminiscent of how they dealt with the accidents involving the faulty rudders on the 737s years ago.
One supposes if blame is pointed their way that they will pay compensation without admitted guilt. Big business. Our deaths get factored into the number crunches.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:28
  #765 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
You could make the same argument for flaps being classed as primary flight controls, but they aren't either. A stabilator is, though.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Flight_Controls
Flaps and slats are not controls. Stab trim is an indirect control that is not driven by the yoke (direct control) but by a wheel. Its aerodynamic effect is the same though differently scaled.
Certification of flaps and slats is along the same principles when it comes to an automated aircraft system retracting or driving them.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:30
  #766 (permalink)  
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The ET CEO speaks to Quest on CNN live and he tells that his 737 MAX crew just after take off on Sunday radioed they had flight control problems.

Another message at 08.44 (6 mins after TO) the pilot asked for a clearance to return to base which he was given - again citing Flight Control problems - then the 737 was lost off radar
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:34
  #767 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Why don't you ask the Ethiopians?
It's their investigation.
They'll either want to do it in house, or somewhere else, based on their view on what gets the best results.
the Ethiopians don’t have a good track record of maintaining investigations that are reputable or even believable. They don’t abide by their own air laws, the airline is state owned. Any mistake on their part, whether maintenance, crew competence/training or fatigue will be swept under the floor mat. This will be blamed on something or a chain of events outside of Ethiopia.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:34
  #768 (permalink)  
 
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EASA

EASA just closed the entire European airspace for B737-8 and -9 MAX

Last edited by Swiss51; 12th Mar 2019 at 18:58.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:41
  #769 (permalink)  
 
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@4runner There will be a FDR readout and a CVR transscript. I assume it will be clear enough on the root cause regardless what the interpretation of the parties with money involved are.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:45
  #770 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Swiss51 View Post
EASA just closed the entire European airspace for B737-8 MAX
Yep, at 19Z today:

“As a precautionary measure, EASA has published today an Airworthiness Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all flight operations of all Boeing Model 737-8 MAX and 737-9 MAX aeroplanes in Europe."

"In addition EASA has published a Safety Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all commercial flights performed by third-country operators into, within or out of the EU of the above mentioned models.”
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:55
  #771 (permalink)  
 
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Oh gawd here we go again, get rid of the pilots.

Q. Which form of transport is easiest to automate, rate in order?

Aircraft, trains, ships.

Now when you have thought about that ask why are there still train drivers.

FFS
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:55
  #772 (permalink)  
 
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When Airbus brought out the A320 they were plagued by incidents where the pilots did not understand (or did not interface effectively) with the computer systems.
Citation needed for 'plagued'

And they still have the same problem - accidents like AF447 were dominated by a lack of understanding about the aircraft, its systems, and how to fly a basic aircraft that has little or no computer assistance.
AF447 was more about lack of training than the plane being the problem IMO. No one was in charge of the plane, regardless of what mode it was in.

Planes are more complex, yes, they are also, by any statistic, much much safer than 30-40 years ago. What has changed is the beancounters minimizing training to the fullest extent while the planes are becoming more complex.

Saying the planes are too complicated is reductive and uninformed, just like POTUS.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:56
  #773 (permalink)  
 
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A message last night from the head of Southwest's pilot union SWAPA (tonight's message might be different):

I have been in numerous conversations today with Southwest Vice President of Flight Operations Captain Alan Kasher, who informed me that the MAX aircraft has 17,000 recordable parameters and Southwest has compiled and analyzed a tremendous amount of data from more than 41,000 flights operated by the 34 MAX aircraft on property, and the data supports Southwest's continued confidence in the airworthiness and safety of the MAX.

I have also had conversations with TWU 556 President Lyn Montgomery, who represents Southwest Flight Attendants, AMFA National President Bret Oestreich, SWAPA Safety Committee and SWAPA Government Affairs Committee members, as well as leaders from other Pilot labor unions. I relayed to them that SWAPA is extremely confident that our entire fleet, including the MAX, is safe based on the facts, intelligence, data, and information we presently have. We fully support Southwest Airlines' decision to continue flying the MAX and the FAA's findings to date.

I will continue to put my family, friends, and loved ones on any Southwest flight and the main reason is you, the Pilots of SWAPA. We have lobbied hard for our training to continue to evolve and improve, and due to having the finest union Training and Standards Committee in the industry, that is occurring.

We now have Extended Envelope Training (EET) in addition to our regular annual training and since SWAPA and others have brought awareness to the MCAS issue, we have additional resources to successfully deal with either a legitimate MCAS triggered event or a faulty triggered MCAS event.

SWAPA also has pushed hard for Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor displays to be put on all our aircraft and those are now being implemented into the fleet. All of these tools, in addition to SWAPA Pilots having the most experience on 737s in the industry, give me no pause that not only are our aircraft safe, but you are the safest 737 operators in the sky.


https://swaparesources.s3-us-west-2....2_Update_2.pdf
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:58
  #774 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shackson View Post
Is it known how many times the MCAS system has activated erroneously on the MAX and been successfully dealt with?
Related - is it known whether MCAS has ever been activated to serve its actual intended purpose?

I'm a little unsure whether that question is rhetorical.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 18:59
  #775 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by silverstrata View Post


Has it really made things safer?

When Airbus brought out the A320 they were plagued by incidents where the pilots did not understand (or did not interface effectively) with the computer systems. And they still have the same problem - accidents like AF447 were dominated by a lack of understanding about the aircraft, its systems, and how to fly a basic aircraft that has little or no computer assistance.

It is an undeniable fact that if Airbus had deleted the pilot from the flightdeck entirely, back in the 80s, none of these incidents would have occurred. (It would be simple to write a basic flying software to take over in alternate-law - a simple system based upon attitude and power.)

So the question Trump has posed is valid - is it time to delete the pilot from the flightdeck? Making a computer drive a car in an urban environment is MUCH more complex than flying an aircraft, and yet that technology is forging ahead. So should aircraft forge ahead as well? Face facts, Airbus could delete the pilot from its aircraft within 5 years. (That would not be possible with the 737, but that is another - related - issue altogether.)

Silver
Seriously ? While we all know that pilot error has been involved in a number of accidents, this potential fault in the 737Max shows that the pilots can be the last line of defence if properly trained. The Lion Air accident shows that the previous day the pilots successfully managed a serious computer error and saved all those on board. Unfortunately that is not always the case. The pilots were not successful in saving the AF447 but the aircraft would certainly have crashed anyway if just the computer systems were involved.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 19:00
  #776 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Oh gawd here we go again, get rid of the pilots.

Q. Which form of transport is easiest to automate, rate in order?

Aircraft, trains, ships.

Now when you have thought about that ask why are there still train drivers.

FFS
And don't forget that most accidents that have happened would also have happened if there were no pilots. Also the case with Lion Air, that plane would have crashed without pilots as well, only sooner. And the day before, the pilots had even saved that plane from the failing automation.

How many times earlier have pilots saved their plane from failing automation? Problem is that those moments never reach the news.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 19:00
  #777 (permalink)  
 
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The SWAPA announcement may be overtaken by events.

Following EASA's action, the FAA is going to be under enormous pressure to justify why it is not following suit (assuming it doesn't, though I wouldn't rule out it doing so).
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 19:00
  #778 (permalink)  
 
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You just need to select and train pilots as it used to be when automation was basic. Good selection and training + technology.= safety. I regularly fly with FOs that should not be even near an airplane. Review all requirement, mandatory testing such a DLR , psychological assessment before accessing to professional pilot training also for selfspomsored.. Truth is training is today a business and quality outside of majors sucks big time.. Stop P2F.paid type ratings and line training. Nowadays the main requirement to become a professional pilot is daddy's wallet..

Last edited by STEXUP; 12th Mar 2019 at 19:17.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 19:06
  #779 (permalink)  
 
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It is an undeniable fact that if Airbus had deleted the pilot from the flightdeck entirely, back in the 80s, none of these incidents would have occurred.
And in how many other incidents have pilots made a positive contribution? Not just in the technical aspects of operating the aircraft safely, but in the whole decision making process of things like medical diversions, security incidents etc. Let’s not forget that the job of a Captain is a legal responsibility of the safety of the aeroplane and all the people on it, not just safely flying from A-B. The human factor may sometimes be a weak link, but other times be a vital intervention in enhancing safety.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 19:14
  #780 (permalink)  
 
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I openly admit that I am no fan of the way in which EASA works - being overly reliant on rules and law with sometimes peculiar interpretations of that law - but it's strange to see, following rather than leading, its member States' CAAs, that it chooses to issue an AD which appears to fail to meet the legal requirements set out in Commission Regulation No 748/2012 for such documents.

Of course, if evidence shows that the safety level of this aircraft may be compromised I would hope that this would be declared, even if the details of that evidence are not provided. Overall, as others have suggested, this is a situation which is being driven by public opinion (which may include a good many pilots). Those who claim that it's driven by safety I fear may be deluding themselves. I'm not suggesting that it is wrong that these aircraft are being grounded, but actions are hardly being led by the agencies that are established to protect the travelling and innocent ground-dwelling public.
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