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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 12th Mar 2019, 13:55
  #681 (permalink)  
 
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was always in that checklist, even for the -200

Originally Posted by xetroV View Post
Boeing seems to think differently, judging from the Runaway Stabilizer checklist, which includes the following additional step after switching off the cutout switches: "If the runaway continues: stabilizer trim wheel - grasp and hold".
This ist meant as last resort and was always included, nothing to do with MCAS! Airloads could drive the elevator, etc..
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 13:57
  #682 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Scribble View Post
Has Boeing issued any Maintenance or Crew notices since the Ethiopian accident? If not, what has prompted some countries to ground the Max. Although there is speculation on this site about a similar cause to that of Lion Air crash, I have not seen anything from official sources to confirm the idea.
You haven't seen official sources confirm it, but you also haven't seen them deny it.

Seeing two brand new planes crash in a relatively likely manner, within such a short time of each other and within two years of the plane's release. They are probably not taking any chances until it is clear that this is not the same issue.

Last edited by SigWit; 12th Mar 2019 at 14:03. Reason: spelling
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:01
  #683 (permalink)  
 
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Hi EV,

Let me start by offering my condolences to all involved in two horrific crashes.

No idea about the technical merits of the aircraft but I wholeheartedly agree. With attitude information available and control of pitch and power it is surprising these types of crashes happen. Looking out the window and seeing if the ground is getting closer or further away and where the aircraft is pointing seems to be a lost art.

Like you I worry about true experience, I have quite a lot of hours but in the last 10,000 or so gained less true experience (dealing with new/different issues) than in some 1 hour long flights a couple of decades ago. My experience is now measured by hours and the industry even considers me to be gaining experience (competence?) when asleep in a bunk The standards set in regulation allow for an if you don’t succeed try, try again and you will eventually be successful.

That is jumping ahead, we don’t have the reason for these crashes but if simple procedures and aviation skill in handling a malfunction were contributory, the industry as a whole needs to wake up and realize that the training being given and more importantly the regulatory standards being applied were causal and cost these crews and several hundred passengers their lives.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:11
  #684 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Re: captain had 8000 flt [email protected] 28 years of age:

That sounds hardly believable.
18 out of high school
20 out of flight school with 200 hours
that means 1000 hours per year for every 8 years.
I dont buy it. Must be false.
How about finishing flight school with a CPL at 18. Straight into first job at ET. Average of 800 hours a year for 10 years.

Not common but plausible.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:16
  #685 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by silverstrata View Post


Not my understanding. The logic of the system was posted in the extensive Indonesian thread, and if I recall correctly the MCAS system will continue operating as long as it thinks the aircraft is in a stall situation. So it gives 10 secs of trim, 5 secs waiting, and then another 10 secs of trim. That is why the Indonesian aircraft got multiple trim events (about 12 or so) in quick succession.

The system was obiously never designed to recognise that the aircraft was not stalled - it took the word of one AoA sensor as being gospel. Never mind that the airspeed and attitude were correct, the system reacted solely, and incorrectly, to the erroneous AoA sensor.

It did not even bother checking with the other AoA sensor. All you need is one line of code that says: “if AoA1 not equal to AoA2, deactivate system”. I mean, how hard was that? Ok, it would be nice to have three sensors, but even two can resolve that there is an error somewhere, so the system should not start trimming.

And while we are at it, why was there not a line of code that says: “if ASI greater than 210 kts, deactivate system”. I mean, how hard was that? Please don’t say that high speed stalls are a real problem with the Max, because I will not buy that one.

Silver

The Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) has taken action. The article's vague about what's actually suspended but I think it must be temporary suspension of the type C of A. That's noteworthy as CASA usually take the lead from the FAA on US manufactured equipment.

It won't directly affect many flights as there are no Max 8s in service with Australian carriers yet (Virgin Australia have over 30 on order). Only Fijian among the operators flying Max 8s to Australia hadn't already stopped operations.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...ralia/10894426
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:17
  #686 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gravityf1ghter View Post


Lets just hope the Stab Trim Cutout switches aren’t found to disconnect all Trim (pilot electric trim included) but not MCAS Trim!
the Trim switch cutout removes all electric power to the trim system including the MCAS, it does mean that you need to manually trim the aircraft.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:20
  #687 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Re: captain had 8000 flt [email protected] 28 years of age:

That sounds hardly believable.
18 out of high school
20 out of flight school with 200 hours
that means 1000 hours per year for every 8 years.
I dont buy it. Must be false.
Apparently you can be through the school system at age 17 in Ethiopia. An integrated ATPL(A) course can be done in 12-18 months if all runs smooth. Let's say 19 when he started flying. At 900hrs a year it would be possible. Just saying, the math can work out. So let's not jump to conclusions.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:24
  #688 (permalink)  

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Banned from UK airspace now....
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:26
  #689 (permalink)  
 
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I think after the Australian decision you are going to see a very swift and immediate response from everyone else. Malaysia and Oman just in.

Canada will be next I’d imagine.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:27
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UK CAA ban now. Probably no choice given unease of TUI pax. Social media drives the world!
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:29
  #691 (permalink)  
 
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Unreliable airspeed is a memory item on the 737
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:34
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Originally Posted by xetroV View Post
Boeing seems to think differently, judging from the Runaway Stabilizer checklist, which includes the following additional step after switching off the cutout switches: "If the runaway continues: stabilizer trim wheel - grasp and hold".
That statement isn't there for "erroneous MCAS". If the MCAS has "gone crazy" due to either faulty inputs and/or internal fault in whatever box drives it, then you can assume that the stab drive itself is healthy and just getting nonsense commands. So the cut-out switches will work.

the "if it still moves" is to cover something like a fault downstream of the cutout switches - maybe a short in the motor driving it regardless of command. In such a failure case, the motor will run regardless of the cutouts, so hanging on to the wheel is the last resort.

The chances of having a simultaneous MCAS (or other command system) fault AND an internal stab motor fault are insanely remote.

The procedure isn't just for MCAS, it has to cover all the various uncommanded stab scenarios.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:35
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From the CAA website: www.caa.co.uk/News/Boeing-737-MAX-Aircraft
A spokesperson for the UK Civil Aviation Authority said: "Our thoughts go out to everyone affected by the tragic incident in Ethiopia on Sunday."The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace."The UK Civil Aviation Authority's safety directive will be in place until further notice.

"We remain in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally."

-ENDS-There are currently five 737 MAX aircraft registered and operational in the United Kingdom. A sixth is planned to commence operations later this week.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:40
  #694 (permalink)  
 
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CAA Max Ban

[QUOTE=_pudknocker_;10415002]
MAX to be stopped flying in UK airspace according to sky
Who foots the bill for this decision? (Just asking)
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:43
  #695 (permalink)  
 
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The wide range of views on here is something I applaud - rather I am concerned by some people who do not live in the real world - this one here.

MPLs are a fact of life- I fly EasyJet and Ryanair and the FOs often look like they should still be at school. Same on SpiceJet and Go-Air in India. I don't see them going away. The US seems to be out of step if anything by still insisting on more experience- I am surprised commercial pressure hasn't led to the same there.

Aeroplanes must be built such that they can be flown by these crews - safely operated all over the world. As I said yesterday, I am not sure certification bodies are doing their duty here.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:50
  #696 (permalink)  
 
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Is it as simple as flicking a switch ? The crews that have survived a MACS event got the switch off in time the one(s) who did not could not for some reason identify or react quickly enough to disable the system and perished ?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:02
  #697 (permalink)  
 
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This is gonna hit MAX operators bottom line big time. The travelling public are going to avoid this jet like the plague right now. It takes one click to find out who operates these things. It’ll take something remarkable to restore faith considering how fickle people can be.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:20
  #698 (permalink)  
 
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Norwegian also suspended their 737 MAX operations: https://media.en.norwegian.com/pressreleases/norwegian-temporarily-suspends-flights-with-the-boeing-737-max-following-recommendations-by-european-aviation-authorities-2846615
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:21
  #699 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Re: captain had 8000 flt [email protected] 28 years of age:

That sounds hardly believable.
18 out of high school
20 out of flight school with 200 hours
that means 1000 hours per year for every 8 years.
I dont buy it. Must be false.
quite an accusation; maybe he finished high school at 17, maybe he flew a lot in his teens, so maybe 7000 hrs in 9 years, say 15 hrs/week. Obviously not common, but impossible?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:24
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Originally Posted by Escape Velocity View Post

​Here's the truth - none of them could fly an airplane. Plain and simple. No exaggeration, just the plain truth. ​​​​​​
Thats a pretty unfair and sweeping statement
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