Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:37
  #461 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Seat4A
"American Airlines Flight Attendants Union Telling Crew They Don’t Have to Work the 737 MAX"

Posted on a couple of media sites, including memo from union president. Thanks to those who can post the links.
Here's the letter from the APFA president saying 'normal' fear of flying procedures will be followed. For the pilots, they can take it up with the FAA shrinks in Oklahoma City.


Airbubba is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:39
  #462 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Europe
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
They are though. Excluding some lights that can be turned on or off from multiple locations, light switches throughout all the houses and apartments I have lived so far (also Western and Eastern Europe) have been down for on.

It's a bit of a silly thing to argue about though. The type that I fly has the basic logic that everything pointing forward means normal ops. "Down" is then usually reserved for AUTO instead of ON, but same difference. I thought the larger issue with switches regarding 737 MAX is that they (the cut-off switches) function in the opposite way from the 737 NG. Not really any point dragging in regular light switches if we are talking about a manufacturers cockpit philosophy.
Intrance is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:41
  #463 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
According to the African forum, the copilot was a MPL pilot with 200 hrs.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
ManaAdaSystem is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:41
  #464 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Florida
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Does anyone know whether ADD has any issues with insects clogging uncovered pitot tubes as some Australian airports have? The ET crew reported "erratic airspeed" as well as control issues. Or maybe pitot covers were not removed prior to flight?

Last edited by Lake1952; 12th Mar 2019 at 00:56.
Lake1952 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:42
  #465 (permalink)  
PJ2
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: BC
Age: 76
Posts: 2,484
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lonewolf50, re
"As ever, some training and crew training is the proper supplement to such a modification. "
As ever, , tx.

I wonder if anyone listening to the ATC tapes of ET302's transmissions hears anything like the sound of a stickshaker?
PJ2 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:46
  #466 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Switches ON up or down?

Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
The standard ON position in my experience in England, Poland and New Zealand is DOWN, whereas in Canada and the US it is UP (based on many years of living in each of these countries). International hotel chains may do it differently, but I don't remember.
czarnajama is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:47
  #467 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Age: 56
Posts: 945
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FullWings
What I find interesting, is whenever MCAS is being discussed (re the Lion Air crash and possibly this one as more data comes to light), there are a lot of posts saying that if they’d just done the trim runaway checklist, everything would have been OK. Yes, probably. But what would have led them to that checklist? If you took off in a 737 MAX on a flight where nothing went wrong and you didn’t crash (rare, I know ) and manually flew the cleanup, would you get a bit of trim from MCAS as the last of the flap went in, making it something “normal” and “expected"?

If you had read all the manuals, then got a stall warning shortly after clean, you’d expect the MCAS to do a bit of trimming, yes? So “normal” behaviour? It’s also intermittent and you can trim back and forth yourself, so hardly a “runaway” in the traditional sense; in fact not in the sense of the QRH either, which describes a runaway stab as “continuous”.

So, unless you are prepared to do the runaway stabiliser drill every time you see the trim wheel moving and it wasn’t initiated by you (which would lead to lots of very short flights), how do you tell in a limited timeframe whether MCAS is trying to save your life or trying to kill you...?
MCAS is only supposed to trim the aircraft at "very" high AOA, not during the normal flight profile, so you should never see an MCAS trim input. If you get a stall warning shortly after T/O it should be obvious if it is a real stall or a false warning, based on known aircraft performance, pitch and power (if not more, training required).
MCAS will add 2.5 deg AND trim over a 10 second time frame and stop, unless the pilots resets by manual trim, that will stop the MCAS input for 5 sec and if the high AOA (real or false) is still present add another 10 sec 2.5 deg input (and so on). Not on the 737 myself, but often on the jumpseat, I don't think STS will ever give you a 10 sec trim input, and STS trim after T/O would normally be ANU, as it will try to keep the speed constant while the pilot wants to accelerate. STS and MCAS are AFAIK the only systems able to run the trim on the 737. I also don't think a 737 pilot who is hand flying and trying to accelerate would miss an un-commanded (by him) 10 sec AND trim input. If in doubt just keep blipping the trim every few seconds, and MCAS will do nothing, no need to immediately disconnect the trim (but obviously follow the QRH with regard to trim issues).
hans brinker is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:49
  #468 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
According to the African forum, the copilot was a MPL pilot with 200 hrs.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
So 150 hours in a 737 simulator, a large amount of which would be spent practicing emergencies and systems is less use for a 737 F/O in an emergency than 130 hours pottering around Florida in a C172 and 20 hours or so in a Seneca for the airborne bit of IR training ?
excrab is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:51
  #469 (permalink)  
adr

PPatRoN
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: England
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
Certainly down for on here in the UK and Ireland. Not only for lights but also for switched sockets.

UK 'save energy' sticker for placing near a light switch.
adr is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:51
  #470 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
UK, multiple mainland european countries, Jordan, Ghana, Nigeria to my direct experience. Only place I've seen UP for on is USA, Canada and on aircraft.
Argument was always UP on was safer as gravity could not turn on.

Thruster763 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:58
  #471 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: World
Posts: 496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sailvi767


You have had three recent Airbus crashes where they impacted the water, two in similar circumstances. You had one A340 climb uncommanded over Greenland and just miss a A330 which would have been one of the worst accidents in history. There have been uncommanded nose down pitching moments that resulted in a Rube Goldberg procedure of trying to shutdown two ADR’s on the overhead panel but leaving a third running.
Care to properly elaborate?
joe falchetto 64 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:03
  #472 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: shiny side up
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why elaborate, this is about the MAX, not a comparison to Airbus ac.

I am curious if any of the other airlines have reported the MCAS incidents, but were able to correct?

Smythe is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:08
  #473 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
“The only reason to put this software system in the plane is because of the bigger engines (that had to be placed in a different area of the wings), which can cause the aircraft to stall.

“The new MAX aircraft have been stretched to have over 200 seats. This means the engines go further back causing propensity to stall.

“The training manuals were modified after the Lion Air incident, because at the time the only time MCAS was mentioned was in the definition section. Nowhere else in the original manual were there details on what the MCAS does, bad indications and how to turn it off were included.

“The new manual procedures encompass how to handle the system, Ethiopian Airlines is a tidy airline, so I’d be surprised if they hadn’t circulated it to their pilots.”

Really?? I thought the issue was that the engines were relatively speaking, further forward and higher which leads to the stall? Is this just another case of mistaken EXPERT commentary?
maddyjord is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:18
  #474 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That diagram states it automatically operates when the Autopilot is OFF. i.e.. when you are flying manually. I thought it operated when the Autopilot was ON
maddyjord is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:18
  #475 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PlatinumFlyer is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:23
  #476 (permalink)  
ZFT
N4790P
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 73
Posts: 2,270
Received 25 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Sailvi767


Keep in mind that sims have very little fidelity in reproducing a actual fully stalled condition.
They have to now as per latest FAA regs (mandatory) and EASA regs (optional) in terms of buffets etc
ZFT is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:25
  #477 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bali, Scotland, Slovakia
Age: 60
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Given the widely reported operating perameters of MCAS, and in the interest of self preservation, is there really any MAX crew out there not having a pre departure brief along the following lines:

If the the trim stab starts trying to fly us in to the ground, we will:

Level off
Reduce speed
Pop out flap 1

And then try to troubleshoot the problem
rmac2 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:27
  #478 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by czarnajama
The standard ON position in my experience in England, Poland and New Zealand is DOWN, whereas in Canada and the US it is UP (based on many years of living in each of these countries). International hotel chains may do it differently, but I don't remember.
This is completely dependent on the installer or home owner that wires it. Yes, on=down is common, but on the other hand, for most bus system (KNX/EIB) switches / button interfaces, up or the top button is on/dim up by default, not down, as it would be counter-intuitive to have a light brighten when pressing the down button, and dim when pressing the up button.
RoelB is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:27
  #479 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by rmac2
Given the widely reported operating perameters of MCAS, and in the interest of self preservation, is there really any MAX crew out there not having a pre departure brief along the following lines:

If the the trim stab starts trying to fly us in to the ground, we will:

Level off
Reduce speed
Pop out flap 1

And then try to troubleshoot the problem
Did you make up that procedure yourself?
Airbubba is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:37
  #480 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bali, Scotland, Slovakia
Age: 60
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Airbubba
Did you make up that procedure yourself?
The key phrase is "along the lines of" , as apparently Boeing preferred not to admit to the possibility, let alone produce a procedure for it. In the absence of any guidance, what would be the quickest way to inhibit the MCAS system under pressure ? I suspect it would be to reproduce a configuration where it is inactive ?
rmac2 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.