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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:18
  #461 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by RTM Boy View Post
If I've learned anything in life, it's not to jump to conclusions, least of all based on eyewitnesses. The CVR and FDR should answer most of the questions. Mine you I still can think of no good reason why with the technology now available internal and external video recording is not also captured on all new airframes.
I absolutely agree and that's why I was trying to articulate the difference between an eye witness and an "ear" witness. Obviously it's not possible to have total certainty but generically memory based on an aural cue will be stronger, especially when it's tied to a visual memory. It's somewhat similar to various "memory hacks". The fact that the primary memory is aural and that the engines didn't sound right is much more important since the witnesses have a strong recollection of what is "normal" aurally. Now it is entirely possible that what was "wrong" is simply engines at a significantly higher power output...but if all four have a clear independent recollection of sound and a visual image of white smoke associated with it then it's highly probable that there is an underlying truth....
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:24
  #462 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Where are the dfdr and cvr headed? And can they be read out with some priority? The world demands some reassurance.
I'm hoping they end up on Dr. Joe Gregor's workbench at the NTSB Vehicle Recorder Lab in Washington, DC. But I don't think the Ethiopian CAA has made a public announcement yet.

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:27
  #463 (permalink)  
 
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"American Airlines Flight Attendants Union Telling Crew They Don’t Have to Work the 737 MAX"

Posted on a couple of media sites, including memo from union president. Thanks to those who can post the links.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:27
  #464 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Thruster763 View Post
Ahh typical American. North America and aviation are about the only places where UP is on for a switch. Most other places in the world down is on.
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:31
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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Come and have a beer at my house. Like the rest of the UK, mainly the light switched, the kettle etc are down for on. This is sensible due to gravity.

BUT more importantly, if you want to make the point - point to the internationally recognized standard that states it.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:35
  #466 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by extreme P View Post
​​​​​​MCAS activates automatically when all of the following conditions are met:
High angle of attack
Autopilot disengaged
Flaps are up
Thanks, and to AirBubba as well.

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:37
  #467 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat4A View Post
"American Airlines Flight Attendants Union Telling Crew They Don’t Have to Work the 737 MAX"

Posted on a couple of media sites, including memo from union president. Thanks to those who can post the links.
Here's the letter from the APFA president saying 'normal' fear of flying procedures will be followed. For the pilots, they can take it up with the FAA shrinks in Oklahoma City.


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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:39
  #468 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vessbot View Post
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
They are though. Excluding some lights that can be turned on or off from multiple locations, light switches throughout all the houses and apartments I have lived so far (also Western and Eastern Europe) have been down for on.

It's a bit of a silly thing to argue about though. The type that I fly has the basic logic that everything pointing forward means normal ops. "Down" is then usually reserved for AUTO instead of ON, but same difference. I thought the larger issue with switches regarding 737 MAX is that they (the cut-off switches) function in the opposite way from the 737 NG. Not really any point dragging in regular light switches if we are talking about a manufacturers cockpit philosophy.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:41
  #469 (permalink)  
 
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According to the African forum, the copilot was a MPL pilot with 200 hrs.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:41
  #470 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know whether ADD has any issues with insects clogging uncovered pitot tubes as some Australian airports have? The ET crew reported "erratic airspeed" as well as control issues. Or maybe pitot covers were not removed prior to flight?

Last edited by Lake1952; 12th Mar 2019 at 01:56.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:42
  #471 (permalink)  
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Lonewolf50, re
"As ever, some training and crew training is the proper supplement to such a modification. "
As ever, , tx.

I wonder if anyone listening to the ATC tapes of ET302's transmissions hears anything like the sound of a stickshaker?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:46
  #472 (permalink)  
 
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Switches ON up or down?

Originally Posted by Vessbot View Post
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
The standard ON position in my experience in England, Poland and New Zealand is DOWN, whereas in Canada and the US it is UP (based on many years of living in each of these countries). International hotel chains may do it differently, but I don't remember.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:47
  #473 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FullWings View Post
What I find interesting, is whenever MCAS is being discussed (re the Lion Air crash and possibly this one as more data comes to light), there are a lot of posts saying that if they’d just done the trim runaway checklist, everything would have been OK. Yes, probably. But what would have led them to that checklist? If you took off in a 737 MAX on a flight where nothing went wrong and you didn’t crash (rare, I know ) and manually flew the cleanup, would you get a bit of trim from MCAS as the last of the flap went in, making it something “normal” and “expected"?

If you had read all the manuals, then got a stall warning shortly after clean, you’d expect the MCAS to do a bit of trimming, yes? So “normal” behaviour? It’s also intermittent and you can trim back and forth yourself, so hardly a “runaway” in the traditional sense; in fact not in the sense of the QRH either, which describes a runaway stab as “continuous”.

So, unless you are prepared to do the runaway stabiliser drill every time you see the trim wheel moving and it wasn’t initiated by you (which would lead to lots of very short flights), how do you tell in a limited timeframe whether MCAS is trying to save your life or trying to kill you...?
MCAS is only supposed to trim the aircraft at "very" high AOA, not during the normal flight profile, so you should never see an MCAS trim input. If you get a stall warning shortly after T/O it should be obvious if it is a real stall or a false warning, based on known aircraft performance, pitch and power (if not more, training required).
MCAS will add 2.5 deg AND trim over a 10 second time frame and stop, unless the pilots resets by manual trim, that will stop the MCAS input for 5 sec and if the high AOA (real or false) is still present add another 10 sec 2.5 deg input (and so on). Not on the 737 myself, but often on the jumpseat, I don't think STS will ever give you a 10 sec trim input, and STS trim after T/O would normally be ANU, as it will try to keep the speed constant while the pilot wants to accelerate. STS and MCAS are AFAIK the only systems able to run the trim on the 737. I also don't think a 737 pilot who is hand flying and trying to accelerate would miss an un-commanded (by him) 10 sec AND trim input. If in doubt just keep blipping the trim every few seconds, and MCAS will do nothing, no need to immediately disconnect the trim (but obviously follow the QRH with regard to trim issues).
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:49
  #474 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post
According to the African forum, the copilot was a MPL pilot with 200 hrs.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
So 150 hours in a 737 simulator, a large amount of which would be spent practicing emergencies and systems is less use for a 737 F/O in an emergency than 130 hours pottering around Florida in a C172 and 20 hours or so in a Seneca for the airborne bit of IR training ?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:51
  #475 (permalink)  
adr

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Originally Posted by Vessbot View Post
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
Certainly down for on here in the UK and Ireland. Not only for lights but also for switched sockets.

UK 'save energy' sticker for placing near a light switch.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:51
  #476 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vessbot View Post
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
UK, multiple mainland european countries, Jordan, Ghana, Nigeria to my direct experience. Only place I've seen UP for on is USA, Canada and on aircraft.
Argument was always UP on was safer as gravity could not turn on.

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 21:58
  #477 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post


You have had three recent Airbus crashes where they impacted the water, two in similar circumstances. You had one A340 climb uncommanded over Greenland and just miss a A330 which would have been one of the worst accidents in history. There have been uncommanded nose down pitching moments that resulted in a Rube Goldberg procedure of trying to shutdown two ADR’s on the overhead panel but leaving a third running.
Care to properly elaborate?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 22:03
  #478 (permalink)  
 
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Why elaborate, this is about the MAX, not a comparison to Airbus ac.

I am curious if any of the other airlines have reported the MCAS incidents, but were able to correct?

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 22:08
  #479 (permalink)  
 
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“The only reason to put this software system in the plane is because of the bigger engines (that had to be placed in a different area of the wings), which can cause the aircraft to stall.

“The new MAX aircraft have been stretched to have over 200 seats. This means the engines go further back causing propensity to stall.

“The training manuals were modified after the Lion Air incident, because at the time the only time MCAS was mentioned was in the definition section. Nowhere else in the original manual were there details on what the MCAS does, bad indications and how to turn it off were included.

“The new manual procedures encompass how to handle the system, Ethiopian Airlines is a tidy airline, so I’d be surprised if they hadn’t circulated it to their pilots.”

Really?? I thought the issue was that the engines were relatively speaking, further forward and higher which leads to the stall? Is this just another case of mistaken EXPERT commentary?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 22:18
  #480 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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That diagram states it automatically operates when the Autopilot is OFF. i.e.. when you are flying manually. I thought it operated when the Autopilot was ON
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