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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:31
  #441 (permalink)  
 
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Question - is/are the AOA sensors in such a position that either or possibly one on the pilots side could suffer from ramp rash ?
Maybe someone with that window seat disco'd the sensor...

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:32
  #442 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 42... View Post
Not certified to stall? Hogwash, we just did full stall recoveries in the sim. Extreme buffet, wingrocking, 6000 plus vvi sinking stalls. This however was not a MAX sim.
Was the simulator certified for stalling? Most sims are only certified for approach to stall and do not have the stall data package.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:33
  #443 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post


Ever tried to switch on the emergency exit lights on a 737?




No, like you have disarmed them innumerable times. But the emergency function (lights on) is the same direction as the guard.
Still see no issue with the stab trim cutout switches..



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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:33
  #444 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post


Keep in mind that sims have very little fidelity in reproducing a actual fully stalled condition.
Disagree, the 737 sim felt like a as fully stalled F15C at extreme AOA as I've felt, violent shaking would be a good description. Yet, controllable. So yes, the 737 is certified to full stall, with devices in place to avoid that condition. The MCAS is only designed to modify characteristics to make it more like the NG, not stop a stall, which apparently has gone horribly wrong.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:42
  #445 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by calypso View Post
You cannot be busy with ANYTHING else. Not with unreliable airspeed. AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE.
From an outside perspective it would seem that both pilots trying to AVIATE at the same time causes more trouble than it solves.

So now we have to wait six months to see if the Max should be grounded, instead of having one pilot COMMUNICATE the problem in real-time. They presumably had the company frequency on one box, why not just flick the comms open and stream the dialogue back to base?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:42
  #446 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by downdata View Post


Even after knowing the DC10 had a design fault wrt to the cargo door, it didnt stop the ground crew of TK981 to not lock the damn cargo door that killed 300 odd people. There must have been tens of thousands of t/os and landings on the DC10 without incidents between AA96 and TK981.
That's rather unfair, the baggage handler in that case did what he had been told to do, close the door and press the lock motor button for a set time. He didn't read English and couldn't read the new notice stating to check the lock mechanism alignment marks through the peephole in the door. The person who had been trained on these new instructions was senior to him but was not present that day. This aircraft also had its door microswitch shimmed in the wrong direction, it showed closed on the FE's panel even with the locking mechanism in an unsafe condition.

No this doesn't relate to a 73 Max crash, but blaming the wrong party is never good.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:42
  #447 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfyankeesierra View Post

No, like you have disarmed them innumerable times. But the emergency function (lights on) is the same direction as the guard.
Still see no issue with the stab trim cutout switches..



No, to switch them on you move the switch in the opposite direction of the guard. OFF is in the same direction of the guard.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:43
  #448 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sure this will be deleted, as a Not-A-Pilot, but ... Oversimplifying, I know, but what about a bloody great button on the coaming that disconnects all the automatics and resets all trim to neutral, and reverts to manual throttles ... and let the pilot fly the bloody thing manually? Or aren’t some Captains able to do that any more?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:45
  #449 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
The kicker being, if I recall the LionAir mishap discussion, the AP disengages when the AoA goes pear shaped (or rather, the AoA signal to the system).
That linkage informs my understanding of the fix that Southwest went for.

(As I recall, we beat to death in various AF447 discussions (all now in the Tech Log forum) whether or not having an AoA gage for the pilots to refer to was a good idea or not. SW, it seems, has decided that it's a good idea at this point in time.
I am assuming the AoA installation being discussed displays respective AoA data on the left & right PFDs coming from their respective sensors, and that there would be some form of comparator and caution/warning system advising the crew of significant differences in the AoA values being produced by the sensors. Can anyone with operational knowledge of this option confirm that this is a correct understanding?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:45
  #450 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post


No, to switch them on you move the switch in the opposite direction of the guard. OFF is in the same direction of the guard.
Exactly, close the guard to ARM.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:46
  #451 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
If one assumes it is a known problem (LionAir type) then what part of the AD is not sufficient?

Is it the technical part or the compliance part?
In my opinion a AoA sensor failure is complicated enough to handle, but if you compound it with the MCAS mistrim it becomes deadly for some pilots.
(By the way a single pitot tube reading low speeds could lead to the same symptoms including stick shaker and MCAS, no?)

Suppose you have below average pilots coupled with mediocre or poor English skills who are not speaking the same mother tongue.
Disagreeing instruments, especially airspeed/AoA, become a real problem with this combination.

Handling a bogus stick shaker is probably an exercise that isn't trained enough anyway.
(Glad to be corrected on that)

Combine that with MCAS which can easily be construed as "handling difficulties" even if you could just use your trim switch to counteract the bogus trim.
(The noise and sensation of the stickshaker are probably the kicker, catching all focus and the trim wheel is ignored)

Personally i would like to see mandatory simulator training for a bogus stick shaker combined with a trim runaway.
Let's say 1 hour additional training for every pilot on type and when transitioning to type.
(Should probably mix in some genuine stick shaker events or that training might have a detrimental effect.)

Having an mandatory takeoff rejection at 80 kts if the AoA sensors disagree would also be prudent.
(Needs a new warning, but should be easy to implement in software)

On the MCAS thing i'm sure something is in the works
(limiting MCAS so it stops trimming when 20 pounds of stick force is reached might be a sufficient solution)

Last edited by wiedehopf; 11th Mar 2019 at 20:06.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:51
  #452 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mangere1957 View Post
Please please tell us that you're not a pilot.


My first reply to you was deleted by the moderators.

Anyway, you should read the post following.
My post was to highlight the difference between a trim runaway and what is happening with the MCAS, and how to recognise it.

And you are welcome not to fly with me.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:54
  #453 (permalink)  
 
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Personally i would like to see mandatory simulator training for a bogus stick shaker combined with a trim runaway.
Let's say 1 hour additional training for every pilot on type and when transitioning to type.
If the entire 73Max course is just a Powerpoint then I can't see anyone agreeing to pay for all that Sim time.


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Old 11th Mar 2019, 19:57
  #454 (permalink)  
 
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Good grief,
Human ergonomics 101. In all parts of the world the 'standard' will vary, therefore you manufacture your control arrangement consistently to your design. So switches 'down' is 'on' in my part of the world.
Same with lights; is a watertight door open at 'green' / 'down' or 'red' / 'up' for dangerous?
You cannot impose a standard that doesnt exist on the entire world. You do need to use a consistent and logical approach for your system.
And where the platforms differ = identifiable competencies and delivered training needs.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:00
  #455 (permalink)  
 
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Do we know what the TOW was?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:00
  #456 (permalink)  
 
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Re: rattle and smoke - I'm very wary of eye-witness reports of anything. Case in point, you can have a simple sea-plane crash into Auckland harbour in clear daylight in full view of the city and plenty of ferries and other boats, and some saw it coming in to land and crashing, whilst others saw it taking off and crashing... in the same article on the NZ Herald...

(It was a wheels-down landing on water)...
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:00
  #457 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RTM Boy View Post
If I've learned anything in life, it's not to jump to conclusions, least of all based on eyewitnesses. The CVR and FDR should answer most of the questions. Mine you I still can think of no good reason why with the technology now available internal and external video recording is not also captured on all new airframes.
Yes - often times individual eyewitness accounts will be unreliable - but when you have several different accounts that are somewhat consistent - you'd do well to pay attention. Frankly - the eyewitness accounts are at least based upon perception and visualization - much more information than those speculating here that automation doomed the craft.

Whatever the ultimate reason for the crash - I currently see no reason to ignore or otherwise discount corroborated eyewitness accounts. If they all turn out to be incorrect - so be it. Choosing to ignore them now is just confirmation bias.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:01
  #458 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PJ2 View Post
I am assuming the AoA installation being discussed displays respective AoA data on the left & right PFDs coming from their respective sensors, and that there would be some form of comparator and caution/warning system advising the crew of significant differences in the AoA values being produced by the sensors. Can anyone with operational knowledge of this option confirm that this is a correct understanding?
PJ, my understanding (imperfect) is that this initiative is an effort to put the pilot back into the loop. As I see it, the display helps resolve the mystery of "what's it doing now?" and "why's it doing that?" for the problem at hand, leading to a better understanding along the lines of 'it's doing this because of that."
In theory, this becomes a cue to prompt corrective action. (Rather than being in a battle with the aircraft, which the crew of LionAir seemed to be). As ever, some training and crew training is the proper supplement to such a modification.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:09
  #459 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SLFinAZ View Post
According to the Reuters report 4 witnesses were specific to sound which is historically much more accurate and telling than sight. Not with regard to specifics but abnormality. It's common for individuals to do a "double take" specific to visual clues since you tend to need to
process and double check an anomaly but we respond much more decisively to aural clues.
I agree, while others have already doubted some eyewitnesses (who can be notoriously unreliable, especially about flames) I can personally attest to different sounds as being a real trigger, with my best personal example being the sound of a major compressor stall on a Continental DC-10 as I was enjoying the sun on Waikiki. Here you would see and hear planes all day long, but even 25+ years later I can clearly recall the major whomping noise that alerted everyone on the beach that something was amiss. All heads turned toward the plane slower and lower, and closer to shore that the regular traffic (normal right turn away from the beach- but she was straight an level close to shore) and most impressive whoomps, fire and smoke belching from both ends of the port engine. A real attention getter.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 20:10
  #460 (permalink)  
 
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With all these airlines and governments around the globe grounding their MAX fleets, I guess that they would be holding an emergency meeting at Boeing.
These global reactions may be a bit of a knee-jerk. I do understand them though. Quite a dilemma.

Where are the dfdr and cvr headed? And can they be read out with some priority? The world demands some reassurance.
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