Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:00
  #361 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: shiny side up
Posts: 133
Am I wrong or was there minimal fire associated with the impact ?
An eyewitness at the scene told the BBC there was an intense fire as the aircraft hit the ground.
"The blast and the fire were so strong that we couldn't get near it," he said. "Everything is burnt down."
Smythe is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:03
  #362 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's my turn
Posts: 1,675
Originally Posted by Rananim View Post
MCAS breaks this rule.
In that case so does the speed trim system.
Chesty Morgan is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:05
  #363 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post


Fuel contamination, engine problems, flight control problems, terrorism, instrument problems, birdstrike, suicide, runaway trim ? Nothing can be excluded, but ony one issue is discussed.
MCAS.
Performance problems have been discussed earlier in this thread, but do not seem to be the cause with the information we have now (as the forward speed was steadily increasing).
Also, there have been rumours about an ATC call to return due to an unreliable airspeed indication.

With this in mind, and also the strong resemblance to the Lion Air flight, it is not so strange that the main focus is on the very system that caused Lion Air to go down.
SigWit is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:06
  #364 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ireland
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by GoingAroundAgain View Post
Agreed. People should have some relevant aviation involvement as crew, engineer, atc, ops etc to post in this group.
Utter nonsense!

Some of the best contributions I have seen on this forum in nearly 20 years, have come from psychologists, educationalists, electronics engineers, geographers, training specialists, management theorists, data and IT engineers, physicists and chemists, manufacturing experts, metallurgists and logicians, non of whom had any aviation involvement.

Speed of Sound is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:06
  #365 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 6
I looked up the history of ET-AVJ on Flightradar24 and noticed that 2 days before the crash, there was an anomaly in it's flight routine. Can anyone shed some light on what that might have been? Looks like ET2860 and 2861 were the flight numbers. I looked up some other tail numbers of ET planes on that similar routing and didn't see any logging of movement with non-existent flight numbers. Could it have been a maintenance issue being tested during that time?
kyden is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:09
  #366 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 204
I understand the 737 (at least since the CFM56 variants) has been somewhat pitch sensitive to power changes, but I'm curious about the underlying need for MCAS, as per this article:

At high angles of attack the CFM Leap-1B’s engine nacelle generates its own lift.
(source: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/)

It must be quite an increase in moment to justify a protection system.

Only a singular AOA input. and a failure mode that might be riskier than the problem it is trying to solve? Hmm...


JamesT73J is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:10
  #367 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Posts: 222
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post


Fuel contamination, engine problems, flight control problems, terrorism, instrument problems, birdstrike, suicide, runaway trim ? Nothing can be excluded, but ony one issue is discussed.
MCAS.
Thank you.

Condolences to the friends and family of the passengers and crew. Why don’t we let them Rest In Peace while the investigators sort this out.

TriStar_drvr is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:15
  #368 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Jakarta
Posts: 2
As a former B737 driver ( some decades ago ) I followed the Ethiopian Airlines fatal accident in Beirut in 2010. The cause of the accident was pilot errors. The Lebanese accident Investigation board suggested that Ethiopian Airlines look into there crew composition ( experience ) and CRM. Being it MCAS or any other cause of this accident, as a former B737, Airbus and currently a Boeing driver I have the sneaky suspicion that crew composition and CRM played a major role in this accident.
almostaveragepilot is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:15
  #369 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Uk
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by Rananim View Post
You dont design for the best crews though,you design for the mere mortals.
Well, in theory you should design to be safe for the worst crews on their worst days. Even if something is designed to be usable by the "average crew", nearly half of your pilots on a given day will be below the level that you designed for. And even the average ones or the best ones can be stressed or startled or sleep deprived or all three.

So either the design has to be - quite literally, fool proof - or the training has to be consistently good.
Snyggapa is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:16
  #370 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 871
I really am mystified that a device that arguably insidiously pitches the aircraft down even if cancelled during a potentially high workload situation and which relies of only one of two AOA sensors ever gained certification. Did the certifying authority fully understand MCAS - how explicit were Boeing in the certification process? Or am I interpreting incorrectly

Surely the STS is different - that is making small corrections both ways towards a desired situation.
22/04 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:26
  #371 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Posts: 243
Originally Posted by TriStar_drvr View Post


Thank you.

Condolences to the friends and family of the passengers and crew. Why don’t we let them Rest In Peace while the investigators sort this out.

Easily the most sensible and correct post I have read so far.
Speculation is just that. All will be revealed in good time.
Buster15 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:30
  #372 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: on a blue balloon
Posts: 320
Did the certifying authority fully understand MCAS ?

There has to be mutual trust for certification to take place on time. I don't know but I doubt that
the personnel of the FAA Regional Office in Renton WA are hostile to their Boeing counterparts.
oldchina is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:37
  #373 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mile High, Colorado
Age: 33
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by NWA SLF View Post
Ironic that members here who blame the MCAS system already are switching to A320s for their flights which also have the same type angle of attack sensors along with software to prevent a stall and have received faulty see also from sensors resulting in a fatal crash before the crew could respond. It was 10 years ago the A320 with 3 sensors had 2 freeze due to maintenance, the software selected those 2 to use neglecting the third working AOA sensor because it differed, put the plane into a stall preventing dive at an altitude from which the crew could not recover before plunging into the Med. darn Boeing copying AB.
Not really. The crew put that aircraft into a stall after they failed to apply basic aeronautical techniques for stall recovery.

Big difference between that and an aircraft pitching uncontrollably nose down at low altitudes.
OLVpilot is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:39
  #374 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,036
Now is probably a great time to buy Boeing shares. I have rarely seen such utter tripe talked over two accidents that look, at least at first glance, to be caused by sub standard pilots getting caught by the same tricky but surviveable system failure. Read the 3$%^&ing Boeing AD! Another reason to stop putting undertrained muppets in airline pilot seats.

P.S To ‘Rananim” a pilot of a large passenger jet will NOT be able to distinguish between a faulty sensor and a “real” stall since the aircraft is not certified to stall at all, it is never intended to be stalled, nor does it provide the physical warnings of an incipient stall. That is the reason for all those stall protection systems! That is also the reason for extensive training on systems and their failure modes.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:41
  #375 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: London
Posts: 144
Am I right that the original triplex concept (3 computers using different microprocessors, three different OSs, three different languages and code written by three different teams who don't communicate with each other - a bug in anything means two against one, and the two win) was abandoned long ago? Maybe it should be revisited.
Downwind Lander is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:41
  #376 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: STN
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Speed of Sound View Post


Utter nonsense!

Some of the best contributions I have seen on this forum in nearly 20 years, have come from psychologists, educationalists, electronics engineers, geographers, training specialists, management theorists, data and IT engineers, physicists and chemists, manufacturing experts, metallurgists and logicians, non of whom had any aviation involvement.

Maybe just prevent journalists from getting on?
bucoops is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:43
  #377 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Belfast
Age: 35
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by 22/04 View Post
I really am mystified that a device that arguably insidiously pitches the aircraft down even if cancelled during a potentially high workload situation and which relies of only one of two AOA sensors ever gained certification. Did the certifying authority fully understand MCAS - how explicit were Boeing in the certification process? Or am I interpreting incorrectly

Surely the STS is different - that is making small corrections both ways towards a desired situation.
That is a question requiring answering regardless of this ET crash. It is hard to believe how this logic made it through. For this to be fail safe, it would require 3 sources of data being evaluated. That way there is always an arbitration value. ie Capt side AoA, FO side AoA then a third AoA value not connected with Capt or FO. If this was in place the automated decision making process could evaluate 3 inputs and discard the erronous one.

At present even if there was error checking based on the non-flying side, how is it validated?
EGAC is Better is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:46
  #378 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Sudbury, Suffolk
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Now is probably a great time to buy Boeing shares. I have rarely seen such utter tripe talked over two accidents that look, at least at first glance, to be caused by sub standard pilots getting caught by the same tricky but surviveable system failure. Read the 3$%^&ing Boeing AD! Another reason to stop putting undertrained muppets in airline pilot seats.

P.S To ‘Rananim” a pilot of a large passenger jet will NOT be able to distinguish between a faulty sensor and a “real” stall since the aircraft is not certified to stall at all, it is never intended to be stalled, nor does it provide the physical warnings of an incipient stall. That is the reason for all those stall protection systems! That is also the reason for extensive training on systems and their failure modes.
What extensive training on MCAS and its failure modes?
Maninthebar is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:51
  #379 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bedford, UK
Age: 65
Posts: 1,181
(pax)Was looking for the unreliable airspeed drill for the 737 and found this
737 airspeed unreliable QRH
Can I ask if the -8 differs ?
Mr Optimistic is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 15:52
  #380 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ireland
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by bucoops View Post
Maybe just prevent journalists from getting on?
Journalists tend not to involve themselves in discussions but prefer to just lift chunks of it, often out of context, and don't even have to register as this is a public site.
Speed of Sound is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.