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BAW492 diversion at Gibraltar

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BAW492 diversion at Gibraltar

Old 13th Mar 2019, 19:58
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: under the sea
Posts: 2,236
Oh dear Locked Door you seem to have swallowed the fly to swerve mantra. Blindpew, who I have absolute respect for, unfortunately knows a lot more about this than you ever will.
Please promise me that you will not sneer at the rest of us in the UK flying similar types but the corporation really is not the panacea and superlative you think it is.That might be quite hard for you to understand and appreciate having swallowed the company mantra.
The aviators of the 1960s and 1970s were pilots and they were flying difficult and poorly designed aircraft.They were great at handflying. A Captain who had been used to a Lancaster or a Halifax in his youth would struggle in a Trident with its BEA spec flight system , a system that the rest of the world rejected!
Let the boy fly the approach for you but do the landing yourself, however then have the boy pull reverse for you on landing. It sounds stupid and it was . Make sure that you wear your hat though!
tubby linton is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2019, 22:13
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: by the seaside
Age: 70
Posts: 808
LD?

I went from BEA monitored approach with the "decide...change hands" to the BOAC monitored approach with the PM continuing to monitor the aircraft (experimental cross transfer after BA was formed ) and then onto the Swiss monitored approach which was a cross between the two.
The most foolish part of the lot was changing who was operating the throttles.
Recently at a guild knees up one of my first managers admitted that with hindsight they had got it wrong (we bent eight aircraft in my six years).
I learnt that passenger comfort and allaying their fears was not only part of the job but deferentiated between professionals and cowboys; this included not doing emergency descents with reverse, explaining (truthfully) to the punters what was going on, not planting the aircraft on the aiming point and not letting the automatics do silly things scaring the #### out of everyone.
I took these skills into light aircraft and glider instructing were you can see the fear in the punters first hand rather hiding behind a locked door.
In SR we were expected to greet then thank the pax when disembarking. .try it sometime as it teaches you humility.
There are still some that show that courtesy to pax.
Without doubt many aviators would not have left the autopilot doing unpleasant gyrations..there are times in your career that you will realise that company procedures do not cater for every contingency and you have to act on your own initiative.
It appears that the crew excepted 40 degrees of bank..how far would it have gone before they intervened and what could have been the consequences?
blind pew is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 10:19
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
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That was as good a pair of smack-downs (TL/BP) as I have read in a while!
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 17:31
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by blind pew View Post
Originated in BEA where some of the bomber boys could not cope with the Trident especially on approach way behind the drag curve and was the reason their monitored approach was developed. It was also the reason that Hamble was taken over by the corporations in 1960 when there were thousands of ex military pilots available.
Serious comments here seem to be about issues of dealing with advanced flight systems in turbulent or windshear conditions, but to save BP embarrassing himself and serious readers any further, there’s almost no likelihood that his recent comments have any relevance to this event.

“Bomber boys on the Trident” – for peer-reviewed information on "Pilot-monitored approach” see https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Monitored_Approach and for more detail www.picma.info .

Re “It was also the reason that Hamble was taken over by the corporations in 1960 when there were thousands of ex military pilots available.” Complete and utter b***s.
See papers at for example Royal Aeronautical Society 2017 seminar https://www.aerosociety.com/news/pro...of-the-sandys/ Duncan Sandys as Minister of Defence in 1957 set out a government policy which replaced most RAF piloted aircraft operations with missiles. It abolished Fighter Command and manned interceptors, cancelled Blue Streak and its replacement Skybolt, rendering the V-force bombers obsolete by 1965, cancelled most aircraft projects and merged the remaining manufacturers. See also https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/.../0/steps/12809 . National Service and RAF short service pilot commissions were abolished, so the supply of ready trained ex military pilots would dry up at just the time that the Air Corporations wanted more to expand. Consequently, as stated in paragraph 1 of the introduction to the initial Hamble prospectus in 1960:

“FOR MANY YEARS the output of pilots from the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force provided the great majority of pilot recruits for Civil Aviation. With the reduction in the size of the Armed Services there were strong indications that this situation could not prevail for very much longer. The Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation and the Ministry of Education in conjunction with B.O.A.C. and B.E.A., decided that arrangements must be made to train, as pilots, young men who had recently left school and who wished to make Civil Aviation their career.”

Some aspects of Sandys’ policies were later reversed, but in 1962 as an ATC cadet when I passed the RAF's initial pilot selection process to get a Flying Scholarship, I was told that if I was successful and joined up, it would be on a 28 year commission and it was unlikely I would be actively flying after 1970. On that basis Hamble seemed like the better option for a pilot career!

Back to the real subject of the thread?
slast is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 13:14
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Posts: 1,155
Having only ever flown single-pilot I'm not at all informed on the rationale for specifying some approaches as 'captains only' for airline ops, or indeed on the timing of transfer of control. However having flown many approaches to Rwy 09 at Gib it does strike me as odd that such a stipulation would be applied to the landing but not the turn to finals, which as we've seen here is just as tricky and prone to upset in certain conditions. The transition from instrument to visual flight happens before the turn so the argument for a 'late' handover of control seems not to apply?

Last edited by Easy Street; 17th Mar 2019 at 13:58.
Easy Street is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 16:07
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
Having only ever flown single-pilot I'm not at all informed on the rationale for specifying some approaches as 'captains only' for airline ops, or indeed on the timing of transfer of control. However having flown many approaches to Rwy 09 at Gib it does strike me as odd that such a stipulation would be applied to the landing but not the turn to finals, which as we've seen here is just as tricky and prone to upset in certain conditions. The transition from instrument to visual flight happens before the turn so the argument for a 'late' handover of control seems not to apply?
I'm not BA short haul therefore I'm not familiar with GIB, but re handover of control.

Without opening the perennial debate about BA SOPs I'll just open the perennial debate on the same by pointing out that BA's current SOPs are that the "landing pilot" should not take control above 1000 ft AAL...

I shall now resume lurking....


wiggy is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 21:17
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Posts: 333
Capn Bloggs,I second that,,Hear hear..wise words from the free thinkers here!
Yaw String is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2019, 23:39
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Norwich
Posts: 4
All I can say it was a horrible experience. We were told at Heathrow we may get diverted to Malaga but the pilot decided to give it a go. Then after the go around there was talk of her trying to land again if the weather changed in the next 20 minutes. Think we all just wanted to divert to malaga instead of maybe having to go through that again lol 😢🤢
Shane Marlow is offline  

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