Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

[Airbubba]

A blog post about the jumpseat rider's final flight home:

https://thepilotwifelife.com/the-las...fe-with-honor/

[Educated Airman]

About the loud thump heard in the CVR, the following is from the transcript of the Alaska Air crash due to tail plane jackscrew integrity.
1619:36.6 CAM [sound of extremely loud noise] [increase in background noise begins and continues to end of recording] [sound similar to loose articles moving around in cockpit]=left
1619:37 CAM-? *=left
1619:37.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left
1619:43 CAM-2 mayday.=left
1619:49 CAM-1 push and roll, push and roll.=left
1619:54 CAM-1 ok, we are inverted... and now we gotta get it….=left
1619:59 CAM [sound of chime]=left
1620:03 CAM-1 kick *=left
1620:04 CAM-1 push push push... push the blue side up.=left
1620:14 CAM-1 push.=left
1620:14 CAM-2 I'm pushing.=left
1620:16 CAM-1 ok now lets kick rudder... left rudder left rudder.=left
1620:18 CAM-2 I can't reach it.=left
1620:20 CAM-1 ok right rudder... right rudder.=left
1620:25 CAM-1 are we flyin?... we're flyin... we're flyin... tell 'em what we're doin.=left
1620:33 CAM-2 oh yea let me get *=left
1620:35 CAM-1 *=left
1620:38 CAM-1 gotta get it over again... at least upside down we're flyin.=left
1620:40.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left
1620:42 CAM-? *=left
1620:44 CAM-? *=left
1620:49 CAM [sounds similar to compressor stalls begin and continue to end of recording]=left
1620:49 CAM [sound similar to engine spool down]=left
1620:54 CAM-1 speedbrakes.=left
1620:55.1 CAM-2 got it.=left
1620:56.2 CAM-1 ah here we go.=left
1620:57.1 [end of recording]

[weasil]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

A blog post about the jumpseat rider's final flight home:

https://thepilotwifelife.com/the-las...fe-with-honor/

Thanks for sharing this link. Heartbreaking stuff but I am so proud of the people in our industry. They always circle the wagons.

[ironbutt57]

Originally Posted by Educated Airman

About the loud thump heard in the CVR, the following is from the transcript of the Alaska Air crash due to tail plane jackscrew integrity.
1619:36.6 CAM [sound of extremely loud noise] [increase in background noise begins and continues to end of recording] [sound similar to loose articles moving around in cockpit]=left
1619:37 CAM-? *=left
1619:37.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left
1619:43 CAM-2 mayday.=left
1619:49 CAM-1 push and roll, push and roll.=left
1619:54 CAM-1 ok, we are inverted... and now we gotta get it….=left
1619:59 CAM [sound of chime]=left
1620:03 CAM-1 kick *=left
1620:04 CAM-1 push push push... push the blue side up.=left
1620:14 CAM-1 push.=left
1620:14 CAM-2 I'm pushing.=left
1620:16 CAM-1 ok now lets kick rudder... left rudder left rudder.=left
1620:18 CAM-2 I can't reach it.=left
1620:20 CAM-1 ok right rudder... right rudder.=left
1620:25 CAM-1 are we flyin?... we're flyin... we're flyin... tell 'em what we're doin.=left
1620:33 CAM-2 oh yea let me get *=left
1620:35 CAM-1 *=left
1620:38 CAM-1 gotta get it over again... at least upside down we're flyin.=left
1620:40.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left
1620:42 CAM-? *=left
1620:44 CAM-? *=left
1620:49 CAM [sounds similar to compressor stalls begin and continue to end of recording]=left
1620:49 CAM [sound similar to engine spool down]=left
1620:54 CAM-1 speedbrakes.=left
1620:55.1 CAM-2 got it.=left
1620:56.2 CAM-1 ah here we go.=left
1620:57.1 [end of recording]

No broken jackscrew....details are emerging, no problem with the airplane...wait a bit, much of it is sensitive to the crew and families

[zebravan]

"Thumps" also heard on Egypt Air 990 cvr

[Educated Airman]

Originally Posted by ironbutt57

No broken jackscrew....details are emerging, no problem with the airplane...wait a bit, much of it is sensitive to the crew and families

My theory is that the jackscrew did not fail, but rather that the fuselage attach hardware for the jackscrew fell out. The picture of the jackscrew shows the hardware missing, not failed structure.

[NSEU]

Originally Posted by Educated Airman

My theory is that the jackscrew did not fail, but rather that the fuselage attach hardware for the jackscrew fell out. The picture of the jackscrew shows the hardware missing, not failed structure.

Repeating theories does not make it so. I read your first post and I doubt you are familiar with the stabiliser ballscrew actuator assembly attachment points on a Boeing 767, the limits of travel of an unrestrained stabiliser, the number of safety mechanisms or with the relationship between the stabiliser and the elevator aft quadrants.

There is not one pin holding everything together. There are multiple pins and bushings with individual retaining devices.

[Meester proach]

Originally Posted by Educated Airman

My theory is that the jackscrew did not fail, but rather that the fuselage attach hardware for the jackscrew fell out. The picture of the jackscrew shows the hardware missing, not failed structure.

see two posts up, “ no problem with the aircraft “

if this is true, you are wasting your time .

[4runner]

The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s.

[kenparry]

The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling.

Why do you think that? He would have been strapped in at that stage of the approach.

They hit -4 g’s.

I think it has already been shown to be aerodynamically impossible for -4g at the IAS of the event - and structurally most unlikely

[ironbutt57]

Originally Posted by 4runner

The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s.

this from the boxes folks, heard the same thing from my insider connection, jumpseater thrown from under his unfastened belt, Captain sheared the control breakaway pulling so hard to override the FO who had his column forward, it is thought as flaps were called for, somehow the Capt inadvertently hit the TOGA levers, which then caused TOGA to activate when flaps "1" were selected, the pitch and startle factor caused the FO to aggressively move his controls nose down, with the captain fighting him to no avail, when the aircraft came clear of the clouds then the FO made some exclamation and began to pull back on the controls, but apparently not aggressively enough , I was not privy to the actual conversation on the CVR, this account was heavily redacted, might be a bit before all the story is heard, the word I heard used to describe it was "shocking"

[Capt Fathom]

So the report is out then?

[ironbutt57]

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

So the report is out then?

no.....not that I'm aware of...seems 4runner received the same info as myself,..the leaks are getting bigger, so I'm sure something will have to be released shortly...

[FLCH]

Heard same thing too ironbutt but did not hear about the unfastened seatbelt. It seems your self preservation instinct would kick in if you're in weather.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by 4runner

The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas.

In several of these widebody freighter mishaps a crewmember with a very unsatisfactory employment and training history is revealed in the investigation.

In the 1995 FedEx 705 hijack attempt Auburn Calloway was unable to check out as aircraft commander in the Navy and had been fired by American and Flying Tigers before he was hired at FedEx.

RS, the copilot in the 2003 FedEx 647 MEM MD-10 crash had her ticket pulled a couple of times prior to the mishap due to training deficiencies. She also had other employment challenges including DUI's.

CB, captain on the 2013 UPS 1354 crash at BHM had been let go by TWA prior to his 1990 hiring by UPS. He had a history of repeated training failures including open book homestudy exams but was eventually able to upgrade to captain in 2009.

On a perhaps related note, freighters continue to crash at a much higher rate than pax aircraft at U.S. carriers. Is this due to less oversight? Or lower standards and a more challenging operating environment?

In past years much of the discussion here was focused on the string of mishaps and hull losses at FedEx. As I posted in 2006:

Originally Posted by Airbubba

>>by now FED EX must have one of the worst hull loss records in the industry!

Sadly, FedEx seems to have a widebody hull loss every two or three years. If they were a pax carrier there would be enormous adverse publicity and probably many casualties as well.

I've got friends over at FedEx who tell me the FAA has been all over their training for years now. Instead of annual AQP sim checks like most U.S. carriers, they are under a closely monitored old style six month program.

The pilot flying in the December 2003 MD-10 hard landing and fire at MEM had a history of busted checkrides before she was hired. In April, 1994 the feds pulled her ATP after an FAA inspector observed her performance. She took more training and got the ATP back and was hired by FedEx in 1996. At FedEx she had more checkride failures, a couple of DUI's and an altitude bust that set up the fateful Mad Dog line check back into MEM. Is it possible that "diversity" was promoted over performance in this case? A possibly similar precedent at FedEx was the overlooked poor employment history of Auburn Calloway who brutally attempted to hijack a FedEx DC-10 in MEM in 1994.

Traditionally, FedEx has had very high employment standards for the freight world, i.e. almost all pilots have college degrees (well, there are some Naval Academy graduates <g>) and many are like the founder, Fred Smith, ex-military aviators [I was later corrected on this point, FS was a Marine officer but not an aviator - Airbubba]. The company is consistently profitable and maintenance is excellent by most accounts.

Still, the mishaps and hull losses continue at what everyone agrees is an unacceptable rate...

Will Atlas 3591 turn out to be yet another widebody freighter loss due to 'human factors'? Is a higher accident rate acceptable for cargo planes since the crashes cause 'no significant loss of life'?

[fox niner]

Originally Posted by ironbutt57

no.....not that I'm aware of...seems 4runner received the same info as myself,..the leaks are getting bigger, so I'm sure something will have to be released shortly...

But isn’t a preliminary report supposed to be published after one month? And what is holding them back? I can understand the shocking nature of this and maybe the reluctance to report. But still, it will come out anyway so why not come in the open?
What I mean to say, is that despite the shocking truth, NOT reporting it is adding more speculation.

[AviatorDave]

Originally Posted by 4runner

The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s.

A hstory of doing what exactly? Losing orientation and messing up beyond acceptable level or of being a jerk and pushing the column to make jumpseaters hit the ceiling?

[Chiefttp]

Airbubba,
there is a common thread in your list of accidents. HR departments have taken over Pilot hiring from the Pilots! A friend at UPS was turned down at United because he didn’t perform well on some table top sim evaluation. He was an F-14 Tomcat Pilot in the Navy! The Hogan test has prevented many highly qualified pilots from pursuing a position at many other airlines as well.
As far as the quality of freight pilots vice pax..the two highest paid pilot groups in the US are Fed Ex and UPS by far, and if you look at retirement benefits it’s not even in the same galaxy, so I’m pretty sure at least UPS and FedEx have their pick of the litter over the last few years.

[ironbutt57]

The pilot flying in the December 2003 MD-10 hard landing and fire at MEM had a history of busted checkrides before she was hired. In April, 1994 the feds pulled her ATP after an FAA inspector observed her performance. She took more training and got the ATP back and was hired by FedEx in 1996. At FedEx she had more checkride failures, a couple of DUI's and an altitude bust that set up the fateful Mad Dog line check back into MEM

oh yah, had the displeasure of flying one quick turnaround with this one at a regional airline, what a confrontational, unhappy soul....

[aterpster]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

Will Atlas 3591 turn out to be yet another widebody freighter loss due to 'human factors'? Is a higher accident rate acceptable for cargo planes since the crashes cause 'no significant loss of life'?

Packages don't sue nor do they have grieving families and friends.