Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

[lomapaseo]

Tell me another widebody crash where they weren't eventually found?

ElAl B747 freighter, AMS

[Machinbird]

Trim again

Used to be on some aircraft, that the trim could wind nose down until the A/P could not hold it.
Then the crew got handed a nasty surprise.
What kind of warnings and protections does the 76 have for this situation?

[Icelanta]

Originally Posted by lomapaseo

ElAl B747 freighter, AMS

That is only because Mosad found them before the Dutch.

my condolences to all involved.

[jugofpropwash]

The following was posted earlier:

"In January 2014, the US Federal Aviation Administration issued a directive that ordered inspections of the elevators on more than 400 767s beginning in March 2014; the focus is on fasteners and other parts that can fail and cause the elevators to jam. The issue was first identified in 2000 and has been the subject of several Boeing service bulletins. The inspections and repairs are required to be completed within six years."

Six years would be 2020, so the time isn't up yet. Would this apply to the aircraft in question, and if so, is there any way to know if the inspections and repairs were completed?

[filejw]

Originally Posted by jugofpropwash

The following was posted earlier:

"In January 2014, the US Federal Aviation Administration issued a directive that ordered inspections of the elevators on more than 400 767s beginning in March 2014; the focus is on fasteners and other parts that can fail and cause the elevators to jam. The issue was first identified in 2000 and has been the subject of several Boeing service bulletins. The inspections and repairs are required to be completed within six years."

Six years would be 2020, so the time isn't up yet. Would this apply to the aircraft in question, and if so, is there any way to know if the inspections and repairs were completed?

I’m pretty sure most of these Atlas A/C came to TLV for some type retrofit and update. You would hope something like this would be addressed

[Livesinafield]

What are them marks by the Stab?? like dents? im sure its nothing but i don't see it on other pictures

[Old Boeing Driver]

Atlas took delivery from CIT Leasing in Jan 2016
The freighter conversion was done in April 2017. Presumably, the AD would have been done then.
7 Jan. 2016 N258CT Atlas Air
5 April 2016 N631GT Atlas Air
8 Dec 2016 N1217A Atlas Air
April 2017 N1217A Atlas AirBCF (cargo) conversion
30 Apr 2017 N1217A Amazon Prime Air operated by Atlas

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by Livesinafield

What are them marks by the Stab?? like dents? im sure its nothing but i don't see it on other pictures

Local airflow causing temp ‘oil canning’.

[CONSO]

re propwash re AD yes !-detailed records are SOP !

[jugofpropwash]

Originally Posted by filejw

I’m pretty sure most of these Atlas A/C came to TLV for some type retrofit and update. You would hope something like this would be addressed

One would hope - but, technically, the date wasn't up. And there's always the chance something could be missed in an inspection. Could a failure have resulted in this sort of crash?

[B2N2]

Maybe.
AFAIK this is how the NTSB goes to work:

• Engine team
• Airframe/Flight control team
• MX team
• Human factors/ Crew team

Engine team will include reps from GE
Airframe team will include reps from Boeing
MX team will include reps from Boeing
Human factors/ Crew team will be looking for training records, rest/duty times and interview colleagues, friends and family.
The Union will have several representatives from the pilot group on scene to monitor and assist.
These union reps have received special training.

Multi prong approach is the strategy.
I may have the phraseology wrong but that’s basically what’s going to happen.

Based on the accident site a basic working theory will be formed and any evidence discovered by the various teams will be used to either support or discredit the initial theory.

Up to that point we can only guess.

[tdracer]

Originally Posted by jugofpropwash

One would hope - but, technically, the date wasn't up. And there's always the chance something could be missed in an inspection. Could a failure have resulted in this sort of crash?

While I'm not familiar with the AD in question, it's pretty common for the AD compliance times in question to be staggered based on risk (for structural issues it's typically age related - hours and/or cycles). So you might have something where aircraft with more than xxxxx cycles must comply within 3 years, those with less have 6 years.

That being said, it would extraordinarily sloppy for an aircraft to come out of a major structural mod with an outstanding AD not complied with.
I was in this business long enough to know you 'never say never', but I think the likelihood is quite small that whatever happened is related to that AD.

[thabo]

Originally Posted by filejw

I’m pretty sure most of these Atlas A/C came to TLV for some type retrofit and update. You would hope something like this would be addressed

Atlas has split their conversion orders between Boeing and Iai.
N1217A was converted to freighter by Boeing in Singapore.

[noske]

Originally Posted by mryan75

Give me a break. They found AAF447's after two years at the bottom of the damn ocean. It's been two days and we need some sort of all out remedy? Tell me another widebody crash where they weren't eventually found?

Asiana Cargo 747 near Jeju in 2011. Major parts of the wreckage were found and recovered, but not the flight recorders, apparently due to strong currents over a muddy seabed. https://flightsafety.org/asw-article/in-flight-inferno/

But I have no doubt that these recorders will be found, within a week or two.

[Carbon Bootprint]

Originally Posted by noske

Asiana Cargo 747 near Jeju in 2011. Major parts of the wreckage were found and recovered, but not the flight recorders, apparently due to strong currents over a muddy seabed. https://flightsafety.org/asw-article/in-flight-inferno/

But I have no doubt that these recorders will be found, within a week or two.

I agree. The NTSB has already acknowledged they will dredge the bay if they can't find them by divers, pingers, or mud sloggers.

[Bobman84]

Originally Posted by mryan75

Tell me another widebody crash where they weren't eventually found?

Have no doubt these will be found and agree in principle.

However here's a list for you:

SAA 295 B747 (FDR not found)
Iran Air 655 A300 (neither found)
El Al 1862 B747 (CVR not found)
American 11 B767 (obvious reasons not found)
United 175 B767 (obvious reasons not found)
Asiana 991 B747 (neither found)
Malaysia 370 B777 (neither found)

So, seems a few missing CVR/FDR from wide bodies in the last three decades and quite a lot more from narrow body jets.

[capngrog]

[QUOTE=noske;10401664]



I also agree that the recorders will be found eventually. It looks like most of the wreckage array is in a marshy area with varying water depths. This is a most difficult type of terrain in which to work: too deep to walk (slog through the mud), too shallow to swim. The Atlas Air B-767 crash site looks very similar to the ValuJet 592 crash site, which was in the Florida Everglades, west of Miami.

I've not previously posted on this Forum because I'm neither a currently rated pilot nor much of an expert on anything that really matters; however, I was extensively involved in the recovery efforts and investigation of the ValuJet Flt. 592 crash (May 11, 1996). The two major difficulties that were encountered were having to slog through the mud, crud and debris and the unsuitability of a standard airboat to support such an operation. It may be different now, but back then, the average airboat could only transport three people and was relatively unstable, making it difficult to get on and off the boat. We were lucky in one major respect, because an airboat tour operator (Everglades Holiday Park as I recall) volunteered the use of one of their 40 passenger airboats and operator. This really helped out a lot, since we could transport the guys from the levee to the site safely, and the boat was stable when folks were going into the water and getting back onto the boat. It was also extremely important that no other airboats operate in the recovery area, since their propwash would blow heavily contaminated (mostly biological) water onto other boats and onto the guys in the water.

As I recall (after the first day, things seemed to all run together in my memory), the first data recorder was not recovered until almost a week after the crash. I also recall that no pinging from the recorders was ever detected. Anyway, I have a great deal of respect for the job that the NTSB does and understand that while they seem to slow in issuing their findings, they are extremely effective in finding the causes of accidents. The unsung "heroes" in aircraft crash investigations are the folks (both law enforcement and civilian) who are actively involved in recovery efforts, and who, depending on circumstances, are totally unprepared (both physically and psychologically) for what they must do. Insofar as the ValuJet crash was concerned, it started the day of the crash with our MIA Terminal Operations folks who counseled bereaved relatives friends etc. all the way to the guys on the levee decontaminating recovered debris, to the Medical Examiner's Staff who did a remarkable job of identifying remains (so that loved ones could have closure).

I apologize for this somewhat rambling account, and I could go on and on, but I won't.

Cheers,
Grog

[Almostfamous]

Originally Posted by Bobman84

Have no doubt these will be found and agree in principle.

However here's a list for you:

SAA 295 B747 (FDR not found)
Iran Air 655 A300 (neither found)
El Al 1862 B747 (CVR not found)
American 11 B767 (obvious reasons not found)
United 175 B767 (obvious reasons not found)
Asiana 991 B747 (neither found)
Malaysia 370 B777 (neither found)

So, seems a few missing CVR/FDR from wide bodies in the last three decades and quite a lot more from narrow body jets.

However, with the exception of MH 370, the cause(s) of the crashes were determined.

[Carbon Bootprint]

A Houston TV channel has released security camera video from a school in Anahuac which shows a brief glimpse of 5Y 3591 descending. It was taken from quite a distance away and it's not particularly good quality video, but enough to show the speed and angle with which it came down.

[Capn Bloggs]

Gives me the shivers...