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Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

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Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

Old 24th Feb 2019, 21:43
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Great post tim, and great data collection nice to see posts with unbiased/ non speculative content
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 21:50
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Prayers to the crew and the families.


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Old 24th Feb 2019, 21:56
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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And from the NTSB the debris field is about 200x100 yards.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 22:55
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent stuff Tim! It looks like a situation to me where it is extraordinary if the gust front didn't have something to do with it, given its proximity to where the accident occured but also extraordinary if i did because of how it seems like just a routine front. As you say its possible it set of a chain of events. This is just pure speculation on my behalf but any airline pilots will know (I'm only an instructor) but is it possible some kind of gust/turbulent/wind shear event could lead to the autopilot disconnecting and thus being miss managed, like forgetting that the auto throttle has also disconnected?
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 23:05
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gums View Post

BTW, I am discounting bird strikes, as we should have heard radio calls like we did with Sully. Something really bad happened, and it happened quickly and crew was BZ trying to save their lives and not talking.

Anahuac Wildlife Refuge and nearby High Island are some of the largest areas for bird fallouts in the country. Although usually happens in spring just prior to an approaching cold front. I knew nothing about it while living in Houston, then saw a movie called The Big Year about birding enthusiasts.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 23:48
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by log0008 View Post
This is just pure speculation on my behalf but any airline pilots will know (I'm only an instructor) but is it possible some kind of gust/turbulent/wind shear event could lead to the autopilot disconnecting and thus being miss managed, like forgetting that the auto throttle has also disconnected?
Irrespective of this accident, yes, this has happened. Two high-profile accidents of 777s that I know of. Not in the circumstances you describe, but relevant to autoflight mismanagement or misunderstanding in general. Again, not saying anything about the accident flight.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 00:18
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fire wall View Post
Out of respect for those fine men/women deceased can those of you that have no clue what you are talking about please shut up.

Having flown the 767 for 11 yrs there was NEVER a speed restriction on the windows. That restriction belonged to the 757 and was 313 kts below 8000 ft.
That is negated by the FAA restriction of 250/10000' so anyone of you fly by night self appointed rocket scientists should know that....including you morons at CNN who couldn't tell the difference between the two.
As for WX, BS. I've been going into IAH for close on the last 12 years in the whale and that minor convective signature doesn't cause that ROD.
Why don't you muppets stop embarrassing yourselves and give the professionals a go....ie the NTSB ?
Exactly! Too many flight sim/armchair warriors here as usual
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 00:40
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 45989 View Post
Exactly! Too many flight sim/armchair warriors here as usual
Yet your quote was of someone who stated he flew 767s, and ‘the whale’ for ‘years’, yet simultaneously queried another poster about VFR fuel numbers.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 00:52
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Re: the NTSB photos above.

Does anyone think there is any significance to what ever it is they are measuring and documenting (punctures and imbedded material?)?
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 00:53
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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How about waiting for some facts to surface?
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 00:59
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by short bus View Post
Load shift?
Amazon stuff isn't usually too heavy, but maybe a pallet/container broke loose and started a cascade.
Firet and foremost RIP to the crew and condolences to their relatives , friends and colleagues alike.

Think it was last year, one saw an Atlas 767F landed at RAF Lakenheath to drop off cargo etc...one of many as well as their 747 fleet that have dropped into both Mildenhall and Lakenheath over the years.

Speaking of 747, are you thinking along the lines of the National 747 fatal accident out of Kandahar, back in 2013?

ATB

cheers
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 01:41
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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If there was some explosive devise on board, it could make sense it detonated after descent if it had some sort of pressure switch. Most suspected bomb on board checklists I’ve seen detail procedures to handle pressure switch devices.

Also, what piece is that? It looks like grey paint, aluminium outside and some sort of thick honeycomb structure below. Could that be the nacelle ie? Almost looks like the puncture marks come from the outside in, opposite from expected if there was some sort of severe damage from an engine failure.

Edit: Looks like the nacelles are white, the only light gray seems to be on the wings and pylons. So maybe the punctures could be an engine throwing parts out.

Last edited by Sqwak7700; 25th Feb 2019 at 01:53.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 01:45
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Dominican View Post
How about waiting for some facts to surface?
I thought the reported size of the debris field was pretty significant

And from the NTSB the debris field is about 200x100 yards.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 02:30
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MartinAOA View Post
Prayers to the crew and the families.



I echo the sentiment. I have close friends at Atlas, and have availed myself of their jumpseat and bunks on a number of occasions. They’re a good bunch, and very professional.

Those photos are very interesting. The gentleman on the left is a GE Rep, but I don’t know if that indicates they we’re looking at a piece of engine or cowling. The damage to the material is quite idiosyncratic.

Where’s an engineer when you finally need one ? David R ?
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 02:59
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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the debris field is possibly large because it apparently dove straight in from around 6000'...and hit the bottom....
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 03:08
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JPJP View Post


I echo the sentiment. I have close friends at Atlas, and have availed myself of their jumpseat and bunks on a number of occasions. They’re a good bunch, and very professional.

Those photos are very interesting. The gentleman on the left is a GE Rep, but I don’t know if that indicates they we’re looking at a piece of engine or cowling. The damage to the material is quite idiosyncratic.

Where’s an engineer when you finally need one ? David R ?
Not an engineer but if by idiosyncratic you mean suggestive of ‘shrapnel’-like penetration of the object with paint loss around penetration areas (compare with photos of mh17 debris), mainly from outside in but at least one from inside out, I agree. Likely source, engines, but odd to have caused such rapid loss of control. ?Unlucky replay of catastrophic engine failure a la QF32.

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Old 25th Feb 2019, 03:19
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Video shows Atlas 767F in ‘steep’ dive prior to crash: NTSB

  • 24 February, 2019
  • SOURCE: Flight Dashboard
  • BY: Jon Hemmerdinger
  • Boston
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has obtained security video showing Atlas Air flight 3591 in a “steep nose-down attitude” prior to crashing in Trinity Bay near Houston on 23 February.

“The aircraft is in the video… at a steep descent – [a] steep nose-down attitude,” NTSB chair Robert Sumwalt said during a press conference on 24 February. “I saw no evidence of the aircraft trying to turn or pull up at the last moments.”Authorities have confirmed three people were aboard the aircraft. Atlas Air says there were no survivors.

The video shows the aircraft for approximately 5s, says Sumwalt, adding that the NTSB is sending the footage to laboratories in Washington DC for analysis.

He made his comments in Anahuac, Texas, which is near the crash site. The agency’s top priority is to recover the flight data and cockpit voice recorders, a process that may require dredging, divers or wading “through the debris field and feeling for them”, says Sumwalt.

He also confirmed several details about the flight, which took off from Miami at about 11:30 local time. The 767 was approaching Houston George Bush Intercontinental airport on the “standard arrival routes from the south-east”, says Sumwalt.

At about 12:30 Houston time, the aircraft was descending through 18,000ft. Shortly after, Houston air traffic controllers advised the pilots of “light-to-heavy rain ahead, and provided radar vectors around the weather”, Sumwalt says.

Controllers then cleared Atlas flight 3591 to descend to 3,000ft.

At 12:39, while the aircraft was at about 6,000ft and travelling at 240kt, “communication was lost with the aircraft, as was radar contact”, Sumwalt says. “There was no distress call.”

The aircraft had not been logged as carrying hazardous materials, he adds.

The NTSB has recovered “remains of both wings” and landing gear components from a debris field that measures about 183m (600ft) by 91m, Sumwalt says.

“We have conducted aerial surveys and up-close examination of debris fields via airboats,” he adds. The NTSB intends to load debris onto barges for transport to shore and onward to a local hangar.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has recovered two bodies and is assisting the NTSB with collection of witness statements and documentation of debris, says an FBI spokesperson.

The criminal investigation agency’s involvement in the early stages of NTSB investigations is common practice, he adds.

The Federal Aviation Administration, Boeing, Atlas Air, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, pilot union International Brotherhood of Teamsters and engine maker General Electric are assisting the NTSB with the inquiry, says Sumwalt.

Boeing manufactured the CF6-80C2-powered 767-300ER, registration N1217A, in 1992 and delivered it new to Canadian International Airlines, according to Cirium Fleets Analyzer.

Atlas Air affiliate Titan Aviation Leasing acquired the aircraft in January 2016, at which time it entered service with Atlas Air, Fleets Analyzer shows.

Parent company Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings owns both Atlas Air and Titan.

Since April 2017, Atlas Air has operated the 767 for online retailer Amazon under the Prime Air brand, Fleets Analyzer shows.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 03:43
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Those pieces do not look to me like parts of the engine nacelle - the honeycomb is too thick. Best guess is a moveable aerodynamic surface (e.g. flaps or part of the tail)
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 03:59
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
Instead of all these what-if combinations I would prefer to parse the discussions down to the supporting facts at this time with no more than one leap of speculation beyond what is known.

Question. Do we know the length and spread of the debris trail ?

does that give us a hint of the attitude of the plane during break-up?
For those unfamiliar with Texas geology, I'll provide a brief description of the soil in and around Trinity Bay, hoping it makes understanding the conditions which exist at the impact site easier to visualize.

Basically it's a very deep layer of dark, stiff clay, with little else except some loam around creek beds and occasional fractured blue clay. There is very little sand on the coastal beaches of the bay area, and the impact area consists of marsh grasses and the dark clay already described, with the surrounding water levels between one and three meters.

Recovery of recording devices and airframe debris may be extremely difficult, especially if specific parts suspected of failure are to be located. I was a bit surprised that the bodies of two crew members have already been recovered, I hope this provides a degree of comfort to loved ones.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 04:19
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
the debris field is possibly large because it apparently dove straight in from around 6000'...and hit the bottom....
I wouldn't consider 100m x 200m large at all - in fact for an aircraft the size of a 767 that's on the small side. It would also rule out any in-flight breakup (unless of course they find bits at another location).
I also would consider an uncontained engine failure to be rather unlikely since they'd have been at a relatively low engine power setting - most engine breakups at takeoff power sets, or at high altitudes where the physical rotor speeds tend to high. I suppose a major bird strike might cause enough damage and a large enough imbalance that perhaps the engine could start coming apart, but again the probability would be low at relatively low rotor speeds.
But, one of more big birds through the forward bulkhead that took out some flight controls (remember, the 767 is basically a cable controlled aircraft)? Even if it didn't incapacitate the crew they'd have precious little time to react...

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