Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

Old 21st Mar 2019, 02:36
  #661 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: US
Posts: 2
Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking.

Last edited by ABusDrivr; 21st Mar 2019 at 14:03.
ABusDrivr is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 12:55
  #662 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: farmm intersection, our ranch
Age: 52
Posts: 207
TOGA not even armed until flaps are not up.
flyingchanges is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:41
  #663 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: farmm intersection, our ranch
Age: 52
Posts: 207
Nor does GA mode give you full power...
flyingchanges is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 15:43
  #664 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Laredo, TX
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by flyingchanges View Post
TOGA not even armed until flaps are not up.
But you can envision continuous contact with the switches with the arm while moving the flap handle to 1. Would the thrust levers continue to advance because the rate of climb was not being acheived?
jimtx is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:34
  #665 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 23
And the FO never learned to use the attitude indicator? With -49° pitch everything will be brown - easy to see.
EDML is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:48
  #666 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 88
Would you have to keep yourself pressing TOGA though, to get the power, as it was first pressed before “ flaps not down “.

would have to be the ultimate startle factor to go from a 2000 FPM climb to 49 degrees nose down
Meester proach is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:22
  #667 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: America
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by ABusDrivr View Post
Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking.
Just got the same sequence of events from an old classmate. Only thing additional was that the FO apparently entered the weather and turbulence with the speed brakes fully deployed. I also got the extra stuff about the FO.
Murexway is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:31
  #668 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Laredo, TX
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Murexway View Post
Just got the same sequence of events from an old classmate. Only thing additional was that the FO apparently entered the weather and turbulence with the speed brakes fully deployed. I also got the extra stuff about the FO.
So this might be relevant: https://www.businessinsider.com/amaz...exWYzCom2nO24E
jimtx is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:33
  #669 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Remember in the first page of this thread when someone filtered the ATC audio (background noise from foreground) and the last transmission was Ok. Well that pull you hear at the end is supposedly the jumpseater telling the crew to pull up.

We'll be able to confirm once the transcripts come out, but I've heard the same narrative as above.

Sounds like the PF got disoriented by the pitch up from TOGA being engaged, the buffeting from speedbrakes made him think they were stalling so he pushes it over (way more aggressively than you'd expect) freezes and then when they break out he comes to but by then recovery is impossible.
V1rhot8 is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:48
  #670 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the barrel
Posts: 74
Originally Posted by jimtx View Post
At least according to TT, I would not classify the crew as inexperienced in this case. However, if what was posted here as information off the CVR is true, it would indicate abysmal instrument flying skills of the FO, as well as possibly bad CRM if the CA cannot do better than ripping the stick out in an attempt to counteract an apparently disoriented FO who is pushing the nose down, and a FO who does not hand over the controls when in doubt about his abilities. Yes, events may have unfolded pretty fast, but still that‘s what crews are trained for.

Fatigue and being overworked might very well turn out to be key factors in letting the crew‘s performance drop below acceptable standards at the time of the accident.







AviatorDave is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:54
  #671 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: America
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by jimtx View Post
Yes, but even at the major pax carriers life isn't perfect. Back of the clock flying and contract violations on the part of crew schedulers (who are being pushed) are part of life. But I'm sure it's much worse at the freight outfits below FEDEX and UPS.
Murexway is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:01
  #672 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: America
Posts: 130
Only additional stuff I saw was that the airplane crashed with the autothrottles and A/P engaged and the elevators were split due to cross inputs on the control columns. It was only 18 seconds from 6,300 to the ground.
Murexway is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:29
  #673 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Norway
Age: 52
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by AviatorDave View Post


Even a well-trained and able crew will eventually screw up when fatigue and being overworked comes into play.
I agree completely. Even the best person can screw up on a bad day, even more so when tired.
SteinarN is online now  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:50
  #674 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by AviatorDave View Post


Even a well-trained and able crew will eventually screw up when fatigue and being overworked comes into play.
The flight was during the day. If the crew had been up all night then yes fatigue may/will have come into it. If not then I hope it wasn't self inflicted e.g. crew commuting
Only the final report will confirm. May they RIP
Twiglet1 is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:51
  #675 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by ABusDrivr View Post
Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking.
Wow. Just ... wow.

I understand the pitch up illusion (and in this case, reality, at least to 10 degrees) you get when going TOGA in the clouds.

But how can you possibly pitch down to 49 degrees in response??

I don't care if you were trained only on Cessna's before this flight ... you don't even do this in a Cessna!

If this is at all true, and if the FO didn't do that intentionally, it boggles the mind.
EternalNY1 is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:56
  #676 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,174
When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up.
I suspect the stated sequence is a bit off - i.e. the captain selected flaps 1, then bumped TOGA. TOGA is armed as soon as 'flaps not stowed' is true which would happen almost immediately after flaps 1 selected.
Sounds like spacial disorientation strikes again .
tdracer is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:26
  #677 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 160
Unhappy

Somatogravic Illusion

I’ve experienced it once at night and I can tell you it is almost totally overwhelming. I can easily imagine the FO (due to the large acceleration) believing he was pitching very high nose up and ‘instinctively’ pushing forward. That increases acceleration which makes the illusion even worse, so you want to push forward even more. By this stage he would have been in cognitive overload and totally unresponsive to the CA’s desperate attempts at recovery.

Last edited by Bleve; 21st Mar 2019 at 19:39.
Bleve is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:32
  #678 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the barrel
Posts: 74
Read the link posted by jimtx.
Crews seem to be pushed way over the limits, so I don‘t think that anything can be ruled out by the fact that the accident happened during daytime.
AviatorDave is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:17
  #679 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Denver
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
I suspect the stated sequence is a bit off - i.e. the captain selected flaps 1, then bumped TOGA. TOGA is armed as soon as 'flaps not stowed' is true which would happen almost immediately after flaps 1 selected.
Sounds like spacial disorientation strikes again .
Would you need to bump just one TOGA sw, or both?
COflyer is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 21:52
  #680 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 72
Posts: 2,850
IIRC, on all aircraft I've flown that had TOGA switches, the buttons are inset, to prevent accidental activation. That means a digit has to be inserted into the cup to select TOGA, not just bumping against the switch.
Herod is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.