Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

[last747fe]

Originally Posted by GlueBall

​​​​​​Below 10,000 feet the pilots would normally be strapped in by the shoulder harnesses, making a full slump-over into the control column less likely.

I seem to remember that ATC offered a vector around weather when the crew said which way they wanted to go they were told to descend Expedishly to 3000 could've been hooking up straps jump seater leaning forward to watch the approach thrown onto pedestal and throttle.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by dgordon42

Jump Seat pax getting out of a 'front seat' after sampling the B767 perhaps?
(See post #327 in this thread)

Dave.

Not likely in my experience, and why would they swap seats down low approaching a line of weather?

But, most of the other scenarios including an intentional crash don't seem likely either.

There was an infamous incident in 1994 where a crewmember tried to crash a freighter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...ess_Flight_705

[golf yankee one one]

Sounds plausible - and remember the Voyager

Originally Posted by dgordon42

Jump Seat pax getting out of a 'front seat' after sampling the B767 perhaps?
(See post #327 in this thread)

Dave.

This scenario sounds to me the most plausible explanation for this tragedy. There is a possible similarity to the RAF Voyager incident over Turkey, which was recovered because that occurred at high altitude.

The possibility of a deliberate act seems less likely when details are compared with Germanwings; in that case the pilot was alone in the cockpit, his colleague unable to return because of the security door, and, in retrospect, the pilot had a clear history of mental illness. In this case there is no suggestion that one pilot had left the cockpit, and in addition there was, exceptionally, a third person very close by, making this flight the least likely one during which to commit suicide. Of course we do not know if any of the three individuals had any relevant medical history, and that could tilt the balance of probabilities...

[ManaAdaSystem]

Originally Posted by suninmyeyes

I agree with Glueball that with a standard 5 point Boeing seat harness and in turbulence an incapacitated pilot would not be able to make any forward control input let alone the hefty sustained input required to override an autopilot and pitch down 45 degrees. My only suggestion (and this is pretty remote) would be that someone could have been adjusting his seat and in turbulence it slid forward and jammed the control column forward. I hope it does not turn out to be a nefarious act as it would increase a lot of already inappropriate security restrictions on pilots.

I believe the seats on the 767 have electric adjustment.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem

I believe the seats on the 767 have electric adjustment.

On a freighter? I doubt it.

[Zlinguy]

Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem

I believe the seats on the 767 have electric adjustment.

I flew the 200/300 20 years ago and I'm pretty sure ours were all manually adjusted (I'm not saying that it wasn't a possible option, though..).

[tdracer]

The shoulder portions of the five point harnesses on the 767 are the inertia type - so depending on the 'rate' it's quite feasible for a pilot to 'pitch' forward into the controls. Besides, he didn't need to suddenly 'pitch' forward - slumping forward would be sufficient and is unlikely to be fast enough to trigger the inertia reels.
Airbubba - I don't know if it was basic or an option - but as I recall the 767s I did flight tests on over the last 15 years all had electric seat adjusts - and most were new build freighters.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

On a freighter? I doubt it.

The airframe in question was a passenger aircraft until a few years ago.

[TRey]

Has any determination/guesstimation been made about the ceiling at the time and location of the accident? Or, the likelihood if they were IMC at the time of the "upset"?

[Volume]

Below 10,000 feet the pilots would normally be strapped in by the shoulder harnesses,

Not from my jumpseat experience. Maybe 30% of the pilots do actually use them.
Having some poor weather ahead with a lot of red on the radar however, I would expect most of them to strap in properly.

[Broomstick Flier]

Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem

I believe the seats on the 767 have electric adjustment.

Two of ours have electric adjustment and all the other have manual adjustment. All built originally as freighters. I guess it must be a customer option.

[sequ]

Originally Posted by tdracer

The shoulder portions of the five point harnesses on the 767 are the inertia type - so depending on the 'rate' it's quite feasible for a pilot to 'pitch' forward into the controls. Besides, he didn't need to suddenly 'pitch' forward - slumping forward would be sufficient and is unlikely to be fast enough to trigger the inertia reels.
Airbubba - I don't know if it was basic or an option - but as I recall the 767s I did flight tests on over the last 15 years all had electric seat adjusts - and most were new build freighters.

This particular 767 had manual seats.

Saludos,

SEQU

[GroundProxGuy]

Originally Posted by flyingchanges

Pretty sure all wind shear warnings are inhibited at that altitude.

Predictive Windshear alerts from the weather radar should still function. Airbubba is right, reactive windshear alerts from the EGPWS are inhibited above 1500 feet AGL. So if they were responding to a WS alert at that altitude, it was from the WXR.

[MarkerInbound]

Originally Posted by Power

no, not if they went through KCM entry

There's no KCM to the MIA ramp areas.

[MarkerInbound]

Originally Posted by TRey

Has any determination/guesstimation been made about the ceiling at the time and location of the accident? Or, the likelihood if they were IMC at the time of the "upset"?

Galveston was running about 2000 overcast, Hobby was 3500ish BKN and IAH was just reporting cirrus behind the weather.

[flyingchanges]

Originally Posted by GroundProxGuy

Predictive Windshear alerts from the weather radar should still function. Airbubba is right, reactive windshear alerts from the EGPWS are inhibited above 1500 feet AGL. So if they were responding to a WS alert at that altitude, it was from the WXR.

Might want to check your manual on that one.

[ManaAdaSystem]

The NG starts to scan for predictive windshear below 2300 ft RA, and will issue warnings/cautilns below 1200 ft.
Reactive below 1500 ft.
Not the same aircraft, but probably similar WS system.

[Murexway]

Don't know if it's true, but I saw an article yesterday saying that Grieg Feith (former NTSB "Mud Stud") mentioned that "the autopilot was still engaged when the aircraft was on its rapid descent, meaning that the pilots were fighting the automation". As an old timer, I can't imagine sitting there below 10,000, watching the throttles go to 100% and the nose dropping to 49 degrees nose low without disconnecting the automation, throttles to idle, deploying the spoilers, and pulling for all I'm worth.

[tdracer]

Originally Posted by Murexway

Don't know if it's true, but I saw an article yesterday saying that Grieg Feith (former NTSB "Mud Stud") mentioned that "the autopilot was still engaged when the aircraft was on its rapid descent, meaning that the pilots were fighting the automation". As an old timer, I can't imagine sitting there below 10,000, watching the throttles go to 100% and the nose dropping to 49 degrees nose low without disconnecting the automation, deploying the spoilers, and pulling for all I'm worth.

"Disconnecting" the autopilot on a 767 is trivial - just push or pull with a few pounds of force and it disconnects (with an aural alert in case it's inadvertent). Similarly it takes about 2 lbs. force to move a throttle (4 lbs for both throttles) regardless of what the autothrottle is doing. It's also pretty easy to differentiate an autothrottle movement from a manual movement on the DFDR. There is a max A/T rate (six degrees/second at the throttle lever IIRC) so about ten seconds to go from idle to full forward (obviously less if the throttle is at an intermediate setting).

[FCeng84]

Originally Posted by Murexway

Don't know if it's true, but I saw an article yesterday saying that Grieg Feith (former NTSB "Mud Stud") mentioned that "the autopilot was still engaged when the aircraft was on its rapid descent, meaning that the pilots were fighting the automation". As an old timer, I can't imagine sitting there below 10,000, watching the throttles go to 100% and the nose dropping to 49 degrees nose low without disconnecting the automation, deploying the spoilers, and pulling for all I'm worth.

One of the things that may need to be looked into on this is how the 767 control system responds if the pilot pushes the column while the autopilot is engaged. More recent models recognize pilot intervention via significant controller displacement as time to disconnect the autopilot. On older models the autopilot does not immediately disengage in response to pilot input. There may have been a period of time where both Hal and Row 0 were providing significant control inputs. Learning that the autopilot remained engaged would not necessarily mean that Hal was at fault.