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Old 12th Feb 2019, 07:11
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by misd-agin View Post
If the gusts were that bad you'd think there'd be multiple videos of planes going around. Airliners don't suddenly nose over, especially at that pitch rate, due to windshear.
Just my simplistic tenpennies worth again...

Those that land on that runway a lot ( LHR 27R) will no doubt testify that with the sort of wind strength and direction on the day in question (i.e. lots from a south westerly direction) it gets very very “bumpy” on final due to airflow over the west base and central area structures. As a result I’d hazard a guess you are not just dealing with aircraft and flight path behaviour due to horizontal gusts and simple wind shear 101 as taught with respect to CBs, etc, there are possibly also issues with rotors, chaotic flow, and whatever else is churned up or shed by the upwind structures...Translated into pilot speak it can get “rough as ****” on finals to 27R in those circumstances, and IMVHO I don’t think it is possible to simply look at that video and then analyse the nature of the airflow, aircraft response and say what is seen is down to any single cause.

FWIW for a few years if the Met was as forecast/observed that day the preferential runway system was junked and landings were assigned 27L to stay upwind on West/base central area and so avoid the turbulence​​​​​.

Last edited by wiggy; 12th Feb 2019 at 09:17.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 09:08
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
FWIW for a few years if the Met was as forecast/observed that day the preferential runway system was junked and landings were assigned 27L to stay upwind on West/base central area and so avoid the turbulence​​​​​.
I believe that policy is still nominally in place, at least according to Heathrow's website:

Weather can also affect the use of alternation. For example, strong south-westerly winds can blow across the various buildings in Heathrowís maintenance area and affect the approach for aircraft landing on the northern runway on westerly operations. When this occurs, we switch to landing on the southern runway for safety reasons.
https://www.heathrow.com/noise/heath...ay-alternation

That said, it's well over a year, maybe longer, since that appears to have been last used in anger.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 09:29
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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I wish they'd hold those cameras steady... and Landscape! Got a sore neck trying to follow the Boing...
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 10:42
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by INKJET View Post


TOGA should always be pressed other wise advancing the thrust alone will simply accelerate the aircraft towards the ground as it could still in in G/S mode, one press of TOGA ( TAKE OFF/GO AROUND) will give you a FD pitch up and thrust guidance and change from G/S and normally a 1000-2000 fpm rate of climb using reduced go around thrust, a second press will give you full G/A thrust and a ballistic rate of climb in a light and very powerful aircraft.



Technically correct if you leave the autopilot engaged. I doubt however that that was the case here, they were flying manually and then the first response in such a quick changing environment is pull and push, in other words, fly the aircraft. All the fancy auto and guidance systems can be used and engaged later.

For clarity, pull the yoke and push the trottle.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 11:19
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by misd-agin View Post
If the gusts were that bad you'd think there'd be multiple videos of planes going around. Airliners don't suddenly nose over, especially at that pitch rate, due to windshear.
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 12:43
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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There’s something weird here.
Even a fairly large reduction in airspeed should not result such an aggressive pitch down. It begs the question of whether it could be a problem in the Flight Control FBW logic. Especially given the similarity to the ANA event in alluded to by an earlier poster.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 13:37
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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"Translated into pilot speak it can get “rough as ****” on finals to 27R in those circumstances"

Indeed.

A few words of non-sentimental remembrance and lament for R/W 23 are called for.

Although, it too was quite capable of generating some "rough as ****" approaches. I remember the shaky-voiced RT emanating from the Air Canada TriStar landing in front of us one wintry night: "Man, that was something" he said in tremulous tones. ATC agreed and said that it looked like quite the ride. A hush descended on our flight deck.

Last edited by OLNEY2d; 12th Feb 2019 at 13:56.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 14:10
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with HPSOV that the aggressive pitch down is difficult to understand. The FDR readout would be interesting.
Well done to the crew.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 14:28
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.
Interesting. Are you sure ?

All but 4 of BA's B744s have been in action as recently as yesterday.

The exceptions are two a/c at Cardiff on maintenance, one at Dublin for painting and one that hasn't flown since arriving from CPT on Friday morning. The latter arrived just ahead of a DL A333, so if it bent anything on landing, it didn't stop it taxying off the runway.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 11:48
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HPSOV L View Post
Thereís something weird here.
Even a fairly large reduction in airspeed should not result such an aggressive pitch down. It begs the question of whether it could be a problem in the Flight Control FBW logic. Especially given the similarity to the ANA event in alluded to by an earlier poster.
one might suspect the pitch down was environmentally effected......
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 13:27
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.
Further to my post yesterday, the one remaining BA B744 that could have been a candidate is currently airborne enroute to Denver, so the suggestion that one is grounded at LHR and unairworthy after a hard landing appears to be without any basis.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 19:49
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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A few words of non-sentimental remembrance and lament for R/W 23 are called for
23L departed years ago, now the Southall gasometer has gone!

Once landed a Trident on 23R.

Sorry, didn't mean to mention the "T" word!
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 20:10
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Iíve used both 23L and 05R in a Citation.
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 07:32
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Not sure what "done that" means. Could you amplify?
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 11:52
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My 2 pence worth.. caused by gust and not windshear. Over controlled/ too many control inputs by the crew.
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 11:53
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.
I'm led to believe your source was speaking equine excrement on this occasion.
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 12:17
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Originally Posted by Locked door View Post


Really? Youíre confusing windshear with gpws. Back to flight sim.
Well I think probably you should go back to the sim. No change of configuration recites the QRH
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 12:18
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fargoo View Post
I'm led to believe your source was speaking equine excrement on this occasion.
I tend to agree. Serves me right for earwigging. My apologies.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 20:44
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry, didn't mean to mention the "T" word!
Those who understand the the "T" word might be saddened to learn that they're planning to demolish the Fawley chimney
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Old 18th Feb 2019, 09:17
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Originally Posted by INKJET View Post
Missed approaches or go around are frequently mishandled, the most common being delayed gear retraction, no big deal on what will have been a fairly light aircraft with both engines operating.

If if there was wind shear even without a warning I would delay gear/ flap retraction as the wind shear guidance computer gets messed up by configuration change.

TOGA should always be pressed other wise advancing the thrust alone will simply accelerate the aircraft towards the ground as it could still in in G/S mode, one press of TOGA ( TAKE OFF/GO AROUND) will give you a FD pitch up and thrust guidance and change from G/S and normally a 1000-2000 fpm rate of climb using reduced go around thrust, a second press will give you full G/A thrust and a ballistic rate of climb in a light and very powerful aircraft.

For wind shear escape after a wind shear warning (not caution) its all about terrain avoidance and advancing the thrust levers to full thrust ( FDEC prevents exceeding thrust limits) and pitching to the PLIís ( pitch limit indicators)

In this go around and given the forecast wx covered an extended period I too would have diverted to my alternate, yes they might have got in on a second attempt but why push it? go to MAN refuel and put the passengers on a MAH LHR shuttle if need be.
Inkjet,

Iíve always assumed you were an airline pilot, and suspect that we possibly worked for the same company at one point. Other than the utter drivel written on this particular thread by people who clearly have no idea what theyíre talking about, Iím not sure that Iíve ever read so much twaddle from someone who should seemingly know better.

Just because one company does things a certain way, doesnít mean that they all do. Stop criticising professionals from behind your keyboard when you werenít there, donít know the circumstances and have no idea as to what SOPs the crew were working to. Your last paragraph demonstrates a staggering level of naivety.

The simple truth is that this was a well handled baulked landing/windshear go-around in nasty conditions that happened to be caught on camera by some spotters who want views on their website, nothing more. In the very sad world in which we now live, it was dramatised, picked up as click bait by other news organisations & websites, passed around social media and poured over by armchair experts. The last thing it needs is fellow Ďprofessionalí pilots to publicly confuse their arse for their elbow and start talking from the former.

Last edited by DuctOvht; 20th Feb 2019 at 10:40.
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