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EK15 Diverting to MAN from LGW

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EK15 Diverting to MAN from LGW

Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:04
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Time traveller...you said....

".....But it scares me that some crews would actually keep going around again and again because the book says so...."


Please provide an example of this having happened.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:24
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I once put this scenario to a trainee - "always go around", no caveats, was the response.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:27
  #23 (permalink)  
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Did you ask him how he was going around with no fuel?
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:55
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Was this go around because of the same conditions...

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-47177...athrow-airport

In any case I think they did the right thing.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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It is quite possible to get a windshear warning, perhaps just a momentary one, at a point during the approach when a decision to continue is an option, say 1500-1000 ft above touchdown. In my experience, and I am a couple of years into retirement now, most operators have an SOP regime where a go-round is mandatory and in-flight monitoring systems are such that a zero tolerance policy is likely to be strictly observed. I suppose one could take the argument to the extreme of an island-holding destination where an aircraft would have no option other than to land despite continued windshear warnings !
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 21:58
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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What is it with the pilots or the tools they are given, today?

Back in the late '90's I watched (in awe) B707's land at Ostend. The wind was 29kts gusting 35kts, straight across. Yes the wind was straight off the sea, so not quite the turbulence as today. Old school people who had the skills to do the job.

I am aware we are talking AB here. If it wasn't Boeing I wouldn't go
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 22:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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In my 20 years, in several airlines, a windshear warning (not caution) has been a compulsory go around, unless of course, there is an emergency. I am making an assumption here that they (EK), after 2 go-arounds no longer thought they might land with less than final reserve, they knew, as such a Mayday was called. Am I missing something here?

Did they make it to MAN? Did they take out a few tower blocks near BHX?

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Old 8th Feb 2019, 22:35
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry Dan but nothing has changed. Same weather patterns and same spread of pilot abilities.

And please don’t do Airbus v Boeing.......it really is a boring argument now.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 22:59
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sussex79 View Post
Hi - I was a passenger on this flight. The pilot seemed concerned from the outset. When we boarded in Dubai he mentioned the predicted wind and rain at Gatwick and said “we hope to get you there safely”.

With the cameras we were able to watch both landings and we seeemed a long way from runway on both attempts. Would crew confidence and an obvious landing worry before we even left Dubai come into it?
No. I was a passenger on a flight yesterday and the Captain briefed us that bad weather/strong winds were forecast. I found it reassuring that the conditions at destination had obviously been well briefed and fuelled for.

As for the on board cameras, wouldn’t they make the aircraft look misaligned because of the crabbing effect in the wind?

Its very easy to draw conclusions as a passenger.

Hope that helps.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 10:59
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Used to work for an Operator who's SOP was to divert after two GA . No questions, no discussion, no AB v B . Dead easy really. One guy did get on on a third attempt and the tea & bickies at HQ went on for so long they sent for more bickies. EK, good job.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 11:02
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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At the end of the day it’s not a contest! You just want to arrive somewhere.... safely!
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 12:29
  #32 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by nike View Post
Time traveller...you said....

".....But it scares me that some crews would actually keep going around again and again because the book says so...."


Please provide an example of this having happened.
I listened to the Hong Kong Approach frequency during a typhoon. One airliner, from the middle east, had gone around three times from runway 13 at Kai Tak. The eye of the typhoon passed right through Kowloon harbour and a runway change was carried out. The wind was gusting to 90 kts! By then it was possible to discern the increasing tension in the tone of the pilot's radio transmissions. He requested fuel priority and because the ILS for the reciprocal, runway 31 was taking a little time to come online, ATC offered him a PAR approach to runway 31.

The pilot was obviously confused by this and after a pause (presumably to confer with the captain) he declared that they didn't have any PAR equipment* fitted! Only at that stage did they decide to divert!

* For those who don't know, a PAR is a Precision Approach Radar letdown. No equipment is required to be fitted to any aircraft because the pilot just listens to continuous ATC glidepath and centreline information given during the descent and makes the appropriate left/right and descent corrections suggested.

I made a mental note not to fly with that airline...
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 12:39
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by slowjet View Post
Used to work for an Operator who's SOP was to divert after two GA . No questions, no discussion, no AB v B . Dead easy really. One guy did get on on a third attempt and the tea & bickies at HQ went on for so long they sent for more bickies. EK, good job.
I'm surprised bickies were on offer!
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 13:09
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I listened to the Hong Kong Approach frequency during a typhoon. One airliner, from the middle east, had gone around three times from runway 13 at Kai Tak. The eye of the typhoon passed right through Kowloon harbour and a runway change was carried out. The wind was gusting to 90 kts! By then it was possible to discern the increasing tension in the tone of the pilot's radio transmissions. He requested fuel priority and because the ILS for the reciprocal, runway 31 was taking a little time to come online, ATC offered him a PAR approach to runway 31.

The pilot was obviously confused by this and after a pause (presumably to confer with the captain) he declared that they didn't have any PAR equipment* fitted! Only at that stage did they decide to divert!

* For those who don't know, a PAR is a Precision Approach Radar letdown. No equipment is required to be fitted to any aircraft because the pilot just listens to continuous ATC glidepath and centreline information given during the descent and makes the appropriate left/right and descent corrections suggested.

I made a mental note not to fly with that airline...
If I say PAR approach to our new pilots, I get blank stares in return. Last time I did one was in 1990.
The last SRE approach I did was 1991 (I think) into LHR RWY 23.
I don’t think these approches are covered in our manuals anymore. Never been offered a PAR approach into a civilian airport.
EK carry large amounts of economy fuel from DXB. Remember the A380 that did 3 approcahes to MAN before diverting to LHR? How much fuel did he carry for that exercise?
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 14:03
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Most airlines require a go around if you get a windshear warning. The part hard to understand is running yourself into a low fuel situation. Perhaps they should have diverted after the first attempt.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 14:12
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sussex79 View Post


What was then strange was it was announced we were diverting to Manchester yet spent another 15 mins circling around Brighton. . .


Nothing strange. London airspace is amongst the busiest in the world. It takes time and multiple levels of ATC co-operation to arrange a diversion. Not only have they got to work you through their sector but they have to phone both Manchester and the other ATC sectors en route to see if they can accept you (If a Mayday call is made they will accept you.) It's a precise system of flowing aircraft and unexpected diversions, especially to an airport not nominated on the flight plan as the destination alternate airport, are a wildcard to be accommodated, still to the high level of ATC safety standards required. The delay was the flight crew going through the decision making process, deciding on Manchester, and waiting for ATC to find a gap and co-ordinate you up to MAN.

As for some other posters, I'm perplexed why this is even a thread. There are multiple diversions day in day out, who cares?
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 16:21
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I think my last PAR was at Roveneimi about twenty years ago and I think I was once asked to do an SRA at BHX for controller currency but thats about it since I left the military. Mind you, I did come back across the pond in a 767 into Bournemouth on a fairly miserable morning to find that both their radar and ILS were out so had to do a procedural NDB - we got in !
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 19:22
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Used to work for an Operator who's SOP was to divert after two GA . No questions, no discussion, no AB v B . Dead easy really. One guy did get on on a third attempt and the tea & bickies at HQ went on for so long they sent for more bickies. EK, good job.
Even if the fog had cleared and the sun was out?

Don't know about you, but I take some pleasure in this job by using my knowledge, experience, skills to get passengers and freight to its destination.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 19:25
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Like the BA 787 bounce post.

Move along job well done.

2 attempts divert!
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 20:09
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Any thoughts on this one?
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