Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

CNBC: FAA halting flights into LGA due ATC staffing

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

CNBC: FAA halting flights into LGA due ATC staffing

Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:03
  #1 (permalink)  

Rebel PPRuNer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 46
Posts: 2,818
CNBC: FAA halting flights into LGA due ATC staffing

UPDATE:
https://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/flyfa...p?ARPT=LGA&p=0
Due to OTHER / ZDC + ZJX STAFFING and OTHER / STAFFING, there is a Traffic Management Program in effect for traffic arriving La Guardia Airport, New York, NY (LGA). This is causing some arriving flights to be delayed an average of 41 minutes.

Last edited by MarkD; 25th Jan 2019 at 15:20.
MarkD is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:25
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hadlow
Age: 56
Posts: 591
LaGuardia Airport closed due to Federal shutdown

BBC reporting that LaGuardia airport, New York City has been closed due to a shortage fo Air Traffic Control staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47006907
Super VC-10 is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:25
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 331
Issues expected were:
. Traffic delays, ... Some terminals were closed because of lack of security staff, this adds controllers,
. Delays in aircraft deliveries, ... Could become quite serious because of balance of trade issues,
. Delays in aircraft accident investigations, ... I did not read however that the NTSB was on the 'list',

A0283 is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:49
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,431
Originally Posted by cjm_2010 View Post
I'm guessing they're subject to some sort of draconian automatic dismissal clause which obligates them to work without pay?
Please can someone explain to me this business about being forced to work without pay?

In my part of the world this is called "slavery", and it has been illegal for quite a long time now. I thought that even the USA had got round to abolishing it eventually?
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:53
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 339
What a misleading title and story.
The airport is not closed as you can easily see on any tracking website. It was never closed.

There was a ground stop in place. That means no new flights were allowed to take off with destination LGA.
The ground stop has since been lifted and the rate limited to 30. (Which is basically the standard rate if there is some unvaforable winds, basically every 3rd day)

Also there have been rate reductions in the New York area without any shutdowns. They are understaffed and it is prime season for colds with sore throats.
The facility was understaffed before because they do quite a bit of vectoring in complicated airspace so it's hard to get new trainees, at least that's what i read somewhere.
Not saying that the shutdown is not contributing to the staffing shortage but just assuming the staffing shortage is because of the shutdown is just crazy.

Anyway great reporting by BBC there, so accurate and not jumping to any conclusions at all.
wiedehopf is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:53
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: The Midlands
Age: 35
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Please can someone explain to me this business about being forced to work without pay?

In my part of the world this is called "slavery", and it has been illegal for quite a long time now. I thought that even the USA had got round to abolishing it eventually?
It's all do do with the fact that once the US Government re-opens, all back pay will be honoured, so contractual obligations remain in place. Sort of a similar situation when a company goes into administration the night before staff are due to be paid - the administrators would keep the business open, but pay the staff once they've worked out the ins and outs. (bit of an oblique comparison there, but it sort of puts the context on it).

Last edited by diffident; 25th Jan 2019 at 16:13. Reason: changed "rights" for "obligations"
diffident is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:03
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,431
Originally Posted by diffident View Post
It's all do do with the fact that once the US Government re-opens, all back pay will be honoured, so contractual rights remain in place.
For me time is of the essence in a contract of employment. If my pay is one day late I'm not working the next day, because I'm too busy looking for a new job.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:36
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 774
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
For me time is of the essence in a contract of employment. If my pay is one day late I'm not working the next day, because I'm too busy looking for a new job.
But not many ATC jobs to just slide into. Knowing some of the top people at NATCA, they are nothing but professional towards their members and the travelling public. What a shame Trump can't be the same.
250 kts is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:55
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 971
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
For me time is of the essence in a contract of employment. If my pay is one day late I'm not working the next day, because I'm too busy looking for a new job.
Understood. But for an AT controller, who is the "alternate" employer? There may be another airline hiring across the street, but there isn't another "FAA" across the street. Some of the affected workers are turning to "gig" jobs (Uber or Lyft driving, bartending) in their hours off - which probably does wonders for their rest and alertness. FBI agent? The FBI is the top of the heap in law enforcement - who wants to give up a career there to become a traffic cop or security guard somewhere else? Always assuming that the "unpaid" time will be 1) temporary, and 2) eventually recompensed.

Plus at some levels there is some sense of responsibility and pride - they want to keep the system they've devoted their lives to functioning. At least up to a point.

Problem for the FAA is that they have a substantial number of employees close to retirement anyway, who may just decide "F*ck it - I'll retire now and at least I'll get my pension uninterrupted!" Then we'll have 4-5 years of "short-staffing" until newbie controllers complete training and gain enough experience to be able to handle New York or other high-traffic, high-pressure locations.
pattern_is_full is online now  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:18
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: A warm pub
Posts: 1,164
I'm absolutely staggered this is allowed to happen in the western world. I get the politics of it, but when it comes to a number of occupations such as ATC, FBI, Coastguard among others it puts lives at risk.

If for example 2 aircraft collide on intersecting runways due a bum clearance being given by a controller who is fatigued due not getting paid and either being up all night worrying or driving an Über, who is liable?

Or if the person at the scanner misses the knife in the carry on luggage because they can't keep their eyes open.

Madness.
Una Due Tfc is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:20
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 331
@ diffident
It's all do do with the fact that once the US Government re-opens, all back pay will be honoured,
.
As I understand it this is not automatically and necessarily true. Lawmakers need a majority in a separate agreement to make that true. They have agreed recently on guaranteeing funds for at least some staff. So staff could even be held hostage by witholding backpay.
From aerospace industry views on stress and fatigue effects and risks, the whole thing is quite irresponsible. I wonder if there is a legal precedent when an accident would happen in these circumstances.


A0283 is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:33
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,034
Should have an announcement on ending the shutdown at least temporarily at 1800Z according to news sources.
Airbubba is online now  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:34
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 774
Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
I'm absolutely staggered this is allowed to happen in the western world. I get the politics of it, but when it comes to a number of occupations such as ATC, FBI, Coastguard among others it puts lives at risk.

If for example 2 aircraft collide on intersecting runways due a bum clearance being given by a controller who is fatigued due not getting paid and either being up all night worrying or driving an Über, who is liable?

Or if the person at the scanner misses the knife in the carry on luggage because they can't keep their eyes open.

Madness.
Ultimately it's down to the licence holder to declare themselves fit or not to work. I would suggest that a lack of sleep due to worrying how to pay this month's mortgage would suffice to declare oneself fatigued and therefore unfit to carry out licenced duties. The irony would be if they all turned into work and then declared themselves unfit for operational work but OK for "office" stuff.

Last edited by 250 kts; 25th Jan 2019 at 19:32.
250 kts is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:38
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: The Midlands
Age: 35
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by A0283 View Post
@ diffident .
As I understand it this is not automatically and necessarily true. Lawmakers need a majority in a separate agreement to make that true. They have agreed recently on guaranteeing funds for at least some staff. So staff could even be held hostage by witholding backpay.
From aerospace industry views on stress and fatigue effects and risks, the whole thing is quite irresponsible. I wonder if there is a legal precedent when an accident would happen in these circumstances.


250 kts above has summed it up perfectly, and is more than likely to have been the case today - CNBC reporting Controllers calling in sick.
diffident is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:46
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: In a Pineapple Under the Sea
Age: 57
Posts: 93
US federal employees are now guaranteed all back pay. While that doesn't justify having to show up without pay - at least Congress has passed a law, signed by the President, that guarantees all workers will get back pay.

The 2019 Government Employee Fair Treatment Act ensures back pay for furloughed workers and mandates that the roughly 500,000 employees working without immediate pay during the shutdown are able to take previously scheduled leave without consequence.

As an aside, US federal employees are prohibited by law from going on strike (Taft-Hartley Act) - which is why you see some "calling out sick".
WillFlyForCheese is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 19:34
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 774
US federal employees are now guaranteed all back pay. While that doesn't justify having to show up without pay - at least Congress has passed a law, signed by the President, that guarantees all workers will get back pay.
Big deal-it doesn't exactly keep the wolves from the door on a daily basis.
250 kts is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 20:40
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: North by Northwest
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by WillFlyForCheese View Post
US federal employees are now guaranteed all back pay. While that doesn't justify having to show up without pay - at least Congress has passed a law, signed by the President, that guarantees all workers will get back pay.

The 2019 Government Employee Fair Treatment Act ensures back pay for furloughed workers and mandates that the roughly 500,000 employees working without immediate pay during the shutdown are able to take previously scheduled leave without consequence.

As an aside, US federal employees are prohibited by law from going on strike (Taft-Hartley Act) - which is why you see some "calling out sick".
Prior to this year, the civilian workforce supporting the military were also furloughed during shutdowns. I don't ever recall anyone complaining about surviving the crisis except for the poor military types who had to get their duties done and cover for the missing civilians. In fact, most of my co-workers looked forward to the extra paid vacation. If anything, the complaints were always about not being able to complete work they had started or having to catch up along with getting the additional workload in their inboxes done when they returned.
b1lanc is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.