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777X

Old 21st Jan 2019, 07:35
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Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger View Post
It sort of concerns me when there are professional pilots out there who don't know the difference between a licence Type Rating and an aircraft Type Certificate.:
I was wondering that, too. It's not as if either is a particularly obscure concept.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 07:49
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
AFAIK the DC9 and the B717 are the same type certificate, but the FAA denied Fokker the same for the F27 and the F50. Type Certificate doesn't mean as much as it should.

??????
Wrong! Just see FAA TCDS A817; it includes Fokker 27 Mark 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700 and 050...
By the way, it is same with EASA.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 08:07
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maybe a bit OT...
TCDS No.: EASA.A.036 Fokker F27 Page 18 of 33 Issue: 07 Date: 03 September 2018

SECTION 3 - “FOKKER 50” AND “FOKKER 60” SERIES I. Model: F27 Mark 050

F27 Mark 050, application for T.C. January 10, 1983, approved May 15, 1987.

The F27 Mark 050 same as Mark 500 except for the installation of two new technology Pratt & Witney Canada PW125B engines, Dowty Rotol (c) R 352/6-123F/1 composite 6-bladed propellers, state of the art systems and cockpit instrumentation, electronic engine and propeller controls, increased use of composite structure, four type I doors i.l.o. two type I doors and two type IV exits, double the number of windows, switch from pneumatic systems to hydraulic systems, an electronic flight instrument system (EFIS) and integrated warning system.

1. Engine
Two (2) Pratt and Whitney PW125B or PW127B turboprop engines. Reduction gearing 0.060:1.
Fokker 50 is the marketing designation of the F27 Mark 050

And I find it quite surprising, that all authorities have bought into the 777X being a derivative of the 777. On the other hand, what does a 737 Max and a 737-100 have in common?
More political, than technical decisions.

I am still wondering how the market will embrace the 777X, looks like big is no longer beautiful... Sales for the 777X are slower than for the "classic" 777 in the same timeframe. 787-10 and A350-1000 are not the best selling variants of the model.
Boeing may have succeded to kill the 777 with the 787, just like they killed the 747 with the 777-300ER.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 08:26
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In a nutshell, grandfathering is used by all manufacturers to keep the initial applicable product specification:
- EASA TCDS EASA.A.064 for the A320 Family covers all types from ceo to neo;
- EASA TCDS EASA.A.015 for the A340 covers all types from -200 to -600 and I feel we can all admit that -200 and -500/600 are quite different A/C (a bit similar to 777X vs 777).

As stated by DaverReidUK above, we need to wait for the certifiaction to see if Boeing is able to do the same trick with the 777X.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 08:34
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Originally Posted by llagonne66 View Post
As stated by DaveReidUK above, we need to wait for the certification to see if Boeing is able to do the same trick with the 777X.
Tdracer did answer my original question:

Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
But the 777 type cert is a given - the FAA (and EASA) have already accepted the project as an amended type cert to the 777.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 09:46
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Originally Posted by Volume View Post
I am still wondering how the market will embrace the 777X, looks like big is no longer beautiful... Sales for the 777X are slower than for the "classic" 777 in the same timeframe. 787-10 and A350-1000 are not the best selling variants of the model.
Simply not true - prior to first flight, the original 777 had a little over 110 orders. The 777X currently has over 300 orders and is still months away from first flight. The original 777 didn't top 300 orders until it had been in-service for over two years.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 09:51
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Sounds like they've just used the wing / cockpit / whatever technology and design from the 787 and put it on the 777X.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 10:17
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Still waiting to hear how a mid-life tart-up is going to "change flying forever".... exactly.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 10:24
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Originally Posted by AndoniP View Post
Sounds like they've just used the wing / cockpit / whatever technology and design from the 787 and put it on the 777X.
It shares a lot of the technology indeed. Rockwell Collins and GE were the big winner here for the avionics contracts (Honeywell, not so much). AIMS will be gone. The CCS from the 787 will be inherited. Some of the old architecture will stay though. The 777 is famous (with avionics nerds like me) to be the only commercial airliner to use the Arinc 629 bus on a large scale.
What I really like is that this is the first commercial airliner (AFAIK) which has touch screens. If you know the 777 automated checklists and the 787 FMS/MCDU (which will be adopted for the 777X), it makes a lot of sense to control with touch. Obviously there will be fallback control in case touch fails.

777 has always been my favorite airliner and I am happy to see it live on in a new outfit.

Last edited by Flutter speed; 21st Jan 2019 at 10:25. Reason: Added GE
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 11:51
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What I really like is that this is the first commercial airliner (AFAIK) which has touch screens.
Well, no. Because i have to clear the screens of my good ol' John Deere before every flight from the greasy fingerprints of the "touchscreen loving generation" previous crew ....
Not looking forward to "real" touchscreen avionics, believe me!
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 12:52
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Originally Posted by er340790 View Post
Still waiting to hear how a mid-life tart-up is going to "change flying forever".... exactly.
As tdracer noted (and you appear to have ignored)

Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Lets see - completely new engine, completely new composite wing, new flight deck, nearly all the avionics new, completely revamped fuselage (about the only part of the fuselage that isn't changing is the outside diameter).
A bit more significant than a "mid-life tart-up".
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 13:47
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Interestingly the wing fold occurs automatically on the landing roll out below 50kts, with the idea being that by the time you vacate they have folded. Smart idea.

Extending them though is down to the pilots and although it’ll be impossible to depart without them extended (EICAS) it seems like a bit of a headache to pick a time to do it. The current trend is towards doing all the flappy bits at the gate having pushed back, but the wing unfold will need to be done later in the taxi in some tighter places. They take 20 seconds to lock into place so need a bit of time.

In a world of single engine taxi and MRO and all the other guff, worrying about banging the wingtips onto someone on the taxi out in the dark is another one for list!
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 15:53
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Simply not true - prior to first flight, the original 777 had a little over 110 orders. The 777X currently has over 300 orders and is still months away from first flight. The original 777 didn't top 300 orders until it had been in-service for over two years.
What I was comparing were the 777X orders Boeing received during the last 3 years (20 Orders in Total in 2016, 2017, 2018), and the 777 "classic" orders (127 Orders in Total in 2016, 2017, 2018). So I was referring to recent sales, which should be an indicator of where the industry is heading. Not even talking about the number of interested operators...
I am afraid the time of the very large aircraft is over. Boeing might repeat the A380 experience with the 777X.

Interestingly the wing fold occurs automatically on the landing roll out below 50kts, with the idea being that by the time you vacate they have folded. Smart idea.
Let´s just hope it never activates in flight by mistake... Like the 747 slat auto-retraction...
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 17:43
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Press button, wings fold out.....looks good...wait for the green light (or equivalent on screen), and wait, and wait, and wait...
"Lock not confirmed", "Press it again then!" and wait, and wait, and wait.
"Still Lock not confirmed Sir"
"I can see that you idiot, what does the Book say?"
"Eerrrmmm. It says push the button again"
"Well do it!" - etc., etc.

Long silent taxi back to the gate...

Mac......
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 17:53
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife View Post
Long silent taxi back to the gate...
Possibly even longer than anticipated, if the failure mode is one wingtip folded but the other one deployed ...
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 19:27
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Originally Posted by Volume View Post
What I was comparing were the 777X orders Boeing received during the last 3 years (20 Orders in Total in 2016, 2017, 2018), and the 777 "classic" orders (127 Orders in Total in 2016, 2017, 2018). So I was referring to recent sales, which should be an indicator of where the industry is heading. Not even talking about the number of interested operators...
I am afraid the time of the very large aircraft is over. Boeing might repeat the A380 experience with the 777X.
Boeing has had something of a fire sale on the 'classic' 777 the last few years in order to fill in the production slots prior to the 777X switch over - so operators could buy 777s much cheaper than springing for the X. So the numbers are not really comparable. While Boeing has not indicated when they'll stop producing the original 777, the big financial incentive to get the older model is no longer there. There are rumblings several operators considering placing 777X orders, but with first flight just a few months away, there's little reason to place an order before it's starts flying - when there will be hard data available on what the aircraft can do. It's a common pattern for new aircraft.
As for the 777X being too large, the 777-8X is only slightly larger than the 777-300ER (with better range). The smaller 777-200LR has not been a big seller.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 19:59
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The classic 777 had folding wingtips as an option but I don't believe it was ever ordered.

The 777 was also offered with optional folding wing tips where the outer 6m/21ft of each would fold upwards for operations at space restricted airports, but this option has never been selected by any customers for the aircraft.
https://www.caa.govt.nz/aircraft/Typ...Boeing_777.pdf

Several military aircraft have inadvertently taken off with folded wingtips with varying outcomes.




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Old 21st Jan 2019, 20:01
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Wow! That’s a heck of a winglet!
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 20:01
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In terms of aircraft sales, the 777-300ER was the big hit. Just about every major player operates some form of the triple. LH doesn't, but LX and OS do. Of course, Southwest doesn't. It's kinda like where the 767 was in the 90s (more transatlantic crossings than all other airlines combined) or the 74 in the 80s. Big, efficient at a variety of load factors, and can haul cargo without cubing out.
Not a lot of fun ten wide behind those monstrous engines, but the economics are great.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 21:41
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife View Post
Press button, wings fold out.....looks good...wait for the green light (or equivalent on screen), and wait, and wait, and wait...
"Lock not confirmed", "Press it again then!" and wait, and wait, and wait.
"Still Lock not confirmed Sir"
"I can see that you idiot, what does the Book say?"
"Eerrrmmm. It says push the button again"
"Well do it!" - etc., etc.

Long silent taxi back to the gate...

Mac......
And isn't this the same process as for flaps, except you have lever rather than a button?
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