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last 727 Pax Flight

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last 727 Pax Flight

Old 18th Jan 2019, 23:33
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
I wonder if DB Cooper is still alive and remembers his 727 ride affectionately?!
Isn't he the owner of this website?
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 00:01
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Originally Posted by tdracer
One little known variant of the 727 - the JATO option.

...the JT8D wasn't quite up to the task. So they added JATO bottles - if they lost an engine after V1, they hit a switch that fired a couple of JATO bottles (I think they were located in the wheel wells?).
...you couldn't really tell the difference when they fired the JATOs...
tdracer,

Interesting. Hadn't heard of the JATO on the B727. Any US operator have them installed ?

They were installed on a number of airplane types...as you certainly know (military in particular).

I flew for a small non-sked that had JATO on its DC3s. Yep DC3s. We figured they'd just relocate the impact site if needed.

Overseas National Airways had DC-9-33Fs with JATO mounted in the fuselage fairings where the aft edge of the wing abutted the fuselage. I think they got the MGTW from 109K to about 114K.

Here's a pic but you can't really see the JATO openings but they were there. Saw 'em myself up close while sharing ramps with other non-skeds.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...6_edited-2.jpg

Last edited by bafanguy; 19th Jan 2019 at 00:16.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 12:04
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I believe JATO was only selected by Mexicana, for getting out of the hot & high points on their network.

Of course, the Trident 3 took a somewhat similar approach to insufficient performance
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 12:42
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Could JATO for commercial airplanes still be certified today?
Where would you drop the empty bottles?
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 15:11
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Originally Posted by tdracer
If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.
I can only speak about TWA. Our -100s had a round center inlet, all our -200 and -200As had an oval center inlet.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 15:18
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Originally Posted by bafanguy
aterpster,

What didn't you like about the airplane ? Other than having to put your coffee cup on the floor.

Once you lose 50% of your hearing, the wind noise doesn't bother you anymore.
Poor takeoff performance at ABQ, DEN, and COS. The -100 would wallow at altitude in turbulence. I don't recall having to put the coffee cup on the floor. I also didn't like all the short legs that TWA had for the 727 fleet. I progressed to the 767, then 1011, both of which had CATIII fail-active and outstanding autoflight. The autopilot on the 727 was lousy. Late in the game we got 10 advanced -200s with an allegedly better autopilot. Yeah, right. It could do limited CATIII with no decrab. No one used that "feature."

A friend had an engine failure (-100) on ABQ Runway 26 (shed a tire into one of the outboard engines). It did not fly as advertised in the simulator. They turned down the Rio Grande and struggled for miles to get enough altitude to return for landing.

Also, TWA used the smallest engine on the entire 727 fleet, 14,500 pounds of thrust. I'm not good on engine model numbers. I have no doubt that had I had an engine failure after V1 on ABQ Runway 08, it would have been all over.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 15:57
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Yes, we even had them in Merrie Olde Englande.


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Old 19th Jan 2019, 15:57
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Originally Posted by aterpster
I can only speak about TWA. Our -100s had a round center inlet, all our -200 and -200As had an oval center inlet.
aterpster,

If you flew with the -7 engines they were no bargain. We had the -15s on the -200s IIRC. It was an improvement over the NE -200s which had the -7s.

Apparently there's more to the inlet story than I understood. I assumed the -100 had oval and -200 was round. I'm obviously misinformed. Now I am curious about why the difference.

Boeing 727-23 - American Airlines | Aviation Photo #2196268 | Airliners.net

Last edited by bafanguy; 19th Jan 2019 at 16:26.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 16:35
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Dash -7? You must be joking.

I think these were -19Rs when I flew them.Serious stuff.

No, just had a look at the excellent data from Bafanguy and it shows the three we gave to Syria 9K AFB/C/D as -17Rs. Brain fade...


Last edited by fantom; 20th Jan 2019 at 09:56.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 16:45
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 17:12
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Originally Posted by fantom
Dash -7? You must be joking.

fantom,

I don't think I was but maybe my recall isn't accurate. I can't (without digging into my buried 727 manuals in the storage shed) say with 101% certainty that the inherited NE -295s had -7s but that sure is my recollection. They were dogs...I do remember that.

Looking at this list, one can find -200s produced with -7s on them so my recall is not as far afield as it could be:

Boeing 727 Datacenter
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 17:46
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Originally Posted by bafanguy
fantom,

I don't think I was but maybe my recall isn't accurate. I can't (without digging into my buried 727 manuals in the storage shed) say with 101% certainty that the inherited NE -295s had -7s but that sure is my recollection. They were dogs...I do remember that.

Looking at this list, one can find -200s produced with -7s on them so my recall is not as far afield as it could be:

Boeing 727 Datacenter
"Lead sleds" EAL had some.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 17:58
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Originally Posted by jimtx
"Lead sleds" EAL had some.
jimtx,

Thanks. Here's the Boeing list by customer codes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...customer_codes

Kinda interesting.

Last edited by bafanguy; 19th Jan 2019 at 18:45.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 21:17
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A nice thing about the 727 is that you can go down and slow down. This is just at idle thrust with no speed brakes being used. One can be at 250 knots and intercepting the glideslope at say 5000 feet and just slow down while using the slow speed trim switch(don't you miss that switch) and start configuring. Of course then you have your 10 spoiler panels that can be used for descent as well(compared to just four on the 737-200 and no slow speed trim switch). I heard of one guy being at full flap and gear down at 320K(max gear down speed) as he was quite high and apparently it was really noisy with a big descent rate.

737 guys thought their aircraft were so great because they were comparing it to the turboprops they flew previously, but 727 guys didn't thin much about the two-holer with its main gear seeming to wander as you rolled down the runway(what cause that again, some sort of damper). We had 737's with gravel kits and a 180 knot gear speed and a slow cruise speed. As one former 727 driver said: on the 737 you fly around slowly all day and when you finally get to destination, you can't slow down.

The 727 wing was a thing of beauty when clean and then seemed to slowly come apart into this incredible high lift device for landing with 40 degrees flap viewed from the side making it appear as if the wing was close to a full half circle. The 14 spoilers killed all that lift. I flew as a pax a lot on it and I always loved watching the flaps come out. I also liked the look of LED's 2,3,6, and 7 being the first ones to extend on the leading edge. It just looked kind of cool and the speedbrakes would be tested during the initial taxi out as well. Nosegear brakes added to stopping capability if you had them.

The tail is a thing of beauty with its sweepback and look. Like the DC-9, you might end up having to listen to unsynced engines, especially in the climb. I tried to sync them up in cruise as I thought I could barely feel the sensation of unsynced engines. As a pax, you would hear those engine on approach in the back much more than any wing mounted engine although the 737-200 was annoying loud for the rear pax on takeoff and climb. 727 engine noise seemed more enjoyable as a pax. As for the pilots, it was nice and quiet in the cockpit for a silent engine start and taxi our with the loudest sound being the altimeter vibrator. Mind you, it seemed quite loud if the side window was opened so I suppose the glass was fairly thick. Adding thrust for takeoff just made the air conditioning airflow increase. You would be on initial climbout with it still being nice and quiet. That all changed at 250 knots in the climb though.I heard a few compressor stalls. Fairly quiet in the cockpit but quite loud as a pax.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 21:38
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Originally Posted by Kerosene Kraut
Could JATO for commercial airplanes still be certified today?
Where would you drop the empty bottles?
I doubt it - I don't think you could show the necessary reliability (JATO bottles have been known to occasionally go boom - that would be serious bad news if it was strapped to a commercial airliner at the time). This all happened before my time - stories told by coworkers who had been involved ~10 years earlier. But I got the impression the JATO option was basically just a rule beater.
Back in 2011, we took a 747-8F to Kangerlussuaq in Greenland to do some cold weather testing. First full day we were there it was too warm for the planned testing so we basically got the day off (took a tour up to the glacier which was quite interesting). Anyway walking around Kangerlussaug there are literally hundreds of used JATO bottles. I understand they use them to get C130's off the icecap. Some of the bottles were just laying about but most incorporated into the local landscape - fences and such made from old JATO bottles.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 22:05
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A masterpiece of form and function, they looked the biz. Sleek balanced lines, swept back, pointy nose, it looked fit for purpose, poised like it wanted to fly and fast. Only ever PAX but it puts a smile on my chops remembering the flights I had on them, here, there and everywhere.
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Old 19th Jan 2019, 22:53
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Originally Posted by fantom
Dash -7? You must be joking.
The joke was on the passengers and crews.
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Old 20th Jan 2019, 02:57
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Originally Posted by rog747
AAAW - were you living in Key West back then too? do you recall any airlines bringing the 727-200 into EYW or was the runway too short?

Out of interest what big jets go in there now?

Not been to Key West on hols for over 20 years as it is now so expensive but I'm planning a trip this year to maybe have a slow drive down the Keys.

My last flights back in the day MIA-EYW-MIA were on rather ghastly very small turboprops (Banderante?)

Had some wonderful vintage prop flights on PBA airways on their DC3's and Martin 404's
walking out to one of these at EYW leaving at sunset in warm balmy air and swaying palm trees to fly back to MIA for a Laker or Air Florida DC-10 to Gatwick
I was, but too young to care about jet noise and not very close to the airport. Itís mainly ERJís and 73ís now. The -700 of course. Silver brings Saabís. I quit using them, even to JS due to on time performance and loads. Seaborne manages pretty well with them though. Just sayiní....
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Old 20th Jan 2019, 03:13
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Originally Posted by tdracer
If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.

Iíve never seen a -200 with an oval intake on number 2. Can anyone provide a photo of a -200 with this setup?
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Old 20th Jan 2019, 03:46
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Originally Posted by punkalouver
A nice thing about the 727 is that you can go down and slow down. This is just at idle thrust with no speed brakes being used. One can be at 250 knots and intercepting the glideslope at say 5000 feet and just slow down while using the slow speed trim switch(don't you miss that switch) and start configuring. Of course then you have your 10 spoiler panels that can be used for descent as well(compared to just four on the 737-200 and no slow speed trim switch). I heard of one guy being at full flap and gear down at 320K(max gear down speed) as he was quite high and apparently it was really noisy with a big descent rate.

737 guys thought their aircraft were so great because they were comparing it to the turboprops they flew previously, but 727 guys didn't thin much about the two-holer with its main gear seeming to wander as you rolled down the runway(what cause that again, some sort of damper). We had 737's with gravel kits and a 180 knot gear speed and a slow cruise speed. As one former 727 driver said: on the 737 you fly around slowly all day and when you finally get to destination, you can't slow down.

The 727 wing was a thing of beauty when clean and then seemed to slowly come apart into this incredible high lift device for landing with 40 degrees flap viewed from the side making it appear as if the wing was close to a full half circle. The 14 spoilers killed all that lift. I flew as a pax a lot on it and I always loved watching the flaps come out. I also liked the look of LED's 2,3,6, and 7 being the first ones to extend on the leading edge. It just looked kind of cool and the speedbrakes would be tested during the initial taxi out as well. Nosegear brakes added to stopping capability if you had them.

The tail is a thing of beauty with its sweepback and look. Like the DC-9, you might end up having to listen to unsynced engines, especially in the climb. I tried to sync them up in cruise as I thought I could barely feel the sensation of unsynced engines. As a pax, you would hear those engine on approach in the back much more than any wing mounted engine although the 737-200 was annoying loud for the rear pax on takeoff and climb. 727 engine noise seemed more enjoyable as a pax. As for the pilots, it was nice and quiet in the cockpit for a silent engine start and taxi our with the loudest sound being the altimeter vibrator. Mind you, it seemed quite loud if the side window was opened so I suppose the glass was fairly thick. Adding thrust for takeoff just made the air conditioning airflow increase. You would be on initial climbout with it still being nice and quiet. That all changed at 250 knots in the climb though.I heard a few compressor stalls. Fairly quiet in the cockpit but quite loud as a pax.


Very nice commentary on a lovely aircraft, my first jet as well and I feel fortunate to have flown it


Still the best handling airliner I think, stable yet delightfully responsive and went through turbulence like a hot knife through butter


I liked using that cruise trim button as well, made for very smooth adjustments
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