last 727 Pax Flight

[gearlever]

Originally Posted by bafanguy

tdracer,

Now that you mention it, I do have a vague recall of something in our manuals about the #2 engine, the possibility of surge and x-winds on T/O. I think it was to spool it up with the others but not advance it to T/O power until rolling at some speed ? All my 727 manuals are buried in the storage locker...and I'm lazy.

YEP, we did it that way as well.

[WHBM]

If you look at the photo above, then apart from the obvious stuff like engine position and the empennage, it looks pretty much like a 737 Max. Cover up to the rear of the wing root and you would be pushed to spot the difference. Same fuselage, same flight deck exterior. It seems in 55 years that Boeing design has been incremental rather than substantive. Well done to the original 727 designer.

I wonder if any of the original 727 tooling is still in use at Renton on the Max.

Regarding whether this was the world's last pax flight with an FE, the examples returned of the B742 and the IL76 are, if I am not mistaken, all freighters now.

[Less Hair]

Having flown a lot onboard PA 727 as a kid I seem to remember they had two versions of the No.2 engine air intakes: One oval and one round shaped. Must be related to the surge issue. Pan Am in Berlin had early -100s and later -200s. Remember flights from Munich (Riem) with stop at Nuremberg to Tempelhof. Got all those tin "Junior Clipper Pilot" wings back then.

[bafanguy]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

...seem to remember they had two versions of the No.2 engine air intakes: One oval and one round shaped. Must be related to the surge issue.

The -100s had the oval intake while the -200s were round. I can't remember (if I ever knew) why the difference. They both had JT8Ds of various dash numbers.

Someone here knows the "why" of the difference.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by WHBM

Regarding whether this was the world's last pax flight with an FE, the examples returned of the B742 and the IL76 are, if I am not mistaken, all freighters now.

At least a couple of the surviving B742s aren't freighters:

[aterpster]

Originally Posted by West Coast

Varient specific.

Yes, the -100 was a bit more flexible than the -200.

[aterpster]

Originally Posted by tdracer

When I was a kid in Pueblo, CO, United did 727 pilot training out of the local airport. We had a new house on the very east end of town, and you could literally see the airport out the back window on a nice day. I'd often sit out back on a large dirt pile and just watch them do countless touch-and-go landings.

Most memorable flight I ever had on a 727 was Seattle to Salt Lake about 30 years ago. We were behind schedule, and I was concerned about making my connection in Salt Lake - as we started our takeoff roll the center engine surged. I was sitting near the front of the aircraft, but it was still so loud only my seat belt kept me in my seat (I've heard several engine surges during flight testing in the years since, but none were anywhere near that loud inside the aircraft). After the initial shock from the bang, my next thought was 'damn, I'll never make my connection now' but they continued on with the takeoff as if nothing had happened . When I was getting off after we landed in Salt Lake, I was in a rush but I still took a minute to ask the pilot standing in the flight deck door about continuing the takeoff after the surge. He immediately started into an explanation of what a surge was but I quickly cut him off - 'I work jet engines and I know what a surge is - I was just surprised you continued the takeoff after the surge'. 'Oh, well if we'd aborted I just would have turned around and tried again - so we just retarded the throttle, made sure it recovered, then advanced it and continued...'
I know well that the 727 center inlet was prone to separation that could cause a surge, and that the JT8D engine was unlikely to suffer damage from a surge. I'm also sure the pilot in question had experienced his fair share of JT8D surges, but I was never quite as comfortable flying on a 727 after that...

I have over 7,000 hours on the 727 (which I did not like), most of that time was in the -200. Never experienced that center engine surge.

[bafanguy]

Originally Posted by aterpster

I have over 7,000 hours on the 727 (which I did not like)...

aterpster,

What didn't you like about the airplane ? Other than having to put your coffee cup on the floor.

Once you lose 50% of your hearing, the wind noise doesn't bother you anymore.

[Raffles S.A.]

Originally Posted by bafanguy

The -100s had the oval intake while the -200s were round. I can't remember (if I ever knew) why the difference. They both had JT8Ds of various dash numbers.

Someone here knows the "why" of the difference.

Compressor stalls occur with crosswinds with the oval intakes both on the ground and during flight, may be the reason why Boeing changed them to round.

[SeenItAll]

Originally Posted by aterpster

I haven't watched the video, but I doubt there was any variation of the 727 that could go above FL 420.

I was citing how the Space Shuttle lands, not a 727 -- and only suggesting that the dive that was required to get this 727 into St. Moritz seemed thematically similar to that of the Shuttle.

[tdracer]

If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.

Originally Posted by WHBM

I wonder if any of the original 727 tooling is still in use at Renton on the Max.

Probably not in Renton - the 737 fuselage is made in Wichita (by what is now Spirit). But I'd bet some of that fuselage tooling dates back to the 727 and perhaps even the 707.

[Joe le Taxi]

No need to dive into Samedan (follow the published visual route along the valley, and not the scary spiral they were doing) -

- just a need to not fly into a mountain - something which eludes some unfortunates from time to time at Samedan (invariably when crews try to "improvise")

[bafanguy]

Originally Posted by tdracer

If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.

tdracer,

There were so many 727s built it's hard to keep them all straight. I wouldn't doubt your recollection at all.

Ours would mostly have been post-1973ish following the Northeast merger. The 100s and 200s from NE would have been older.

We had -232s for whatever that's worth...and about 9 or 10 -232As which had the aux fuel tank (6,000 lbs ?) and the Block 5 autopilot which was an improvement over the more common version with the pitch control via the turn knob...finesse required but you get used to it pretty quickly.

We had two 232As with winglets as an experiment which went nowhere as far as I remember. Those had the 40 flap position either blocked off or its use prohibited due to control rigging required by the winglets. All my recollections subject to "revision".

Flickr Slideshows (Photostreams)

[short bus]

The Mexican Feds have a couple 727s they are still using - or at least they were until a couple years ago the last time I saw anything about them.

[amf1966]

Sad to see so many of these classic planes reaching the end of their days - including the queen of the skies herself...

The 727 has a great deal to answer for...

1977, and great excitement as an 11-year-old kid (me) is being taken on a family holiday - an early example of a "package holiday".

Much anticipation as I climbed the stairs into the back of a Tunis Air 727 and settle in to my seat.

The moment that thing throttled up and hurtled off down the runway, I was smitten; I spent the majority of that holiday dreaming of the journey home and a repeat performance of that exhilarating acceleration and leap off the ground.

That day in 1977 was the start of my life long obsession, fascination and thirst for knowledge about aviation; and a Tunis Air B727 is entirely responsible.

What memories...

[5711N0205W]

My last 727 pax flight would be from Pointe Noire to Libreville with Air Nobag where the 727 positioned into PN empty and all the seat backs were folded forwards from braking, we got on board after eventually bribing our way out of the holding cage (departure lounge)... happy days

[bafanguy]

This is their fate:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6975728

[tdracer]

One little known variant of the 727 - the JATO option.
Apparently a Mexican airline wanted to be able to operate fully loaded out of Mexico City on a hot day, and the JT8D wasn't quite up to the task. So they added JATO bottles - if they lost an engine after V1, they hit a switch that fired a couple of JATO bottles (I think they were located in the wheel wells?).
According to a coworker that had been on board for the flight tests, you couldn't really tell the difference when they fired the JATOs...
Eventually they were able to upgrade the engines sufficiently that the JATO option was no longer needed. From what I heard they were never actually used in anger.

[gearlever]

Originally Posted by tdracer

One little known variant of the 727 - the JATO option.
Apparently a Mexican airline wanted to be able to operate fully loaded out of Mexico City on a hot day, and the JT8D wasn't quite up to the task. So they added JATO bottles - if they lost an engine after V1, they hit a switch that fired a couple of JATO bottles (I think they were located in the wheel wells?).
According to a coworker that had been on board for the flight tests, you couldn't really tell the difference when they fired the JATOs...
Eventually they were able to upgrade the engines sufficiently that the JATO option was no longer needed. From what I heard they were never actually used in anger.

Yep, a first officer which flew for some years as a CPT in South America, told me about this feature. Two rockets in the MLG wheel well, associated with the auto pack trip system.

[suninmyeyes]

I wonder if DB Cooper is still alive and remembers his 727 ride affectionately?!