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777-300 Landing Tailstrike 11 Dec 2018 in Hong Kong

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777-300 Landing Tailstrike 11 Dec 2018 in Hong Kong

Old 13th Jan 2019, 04:07
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Considering that the PF was getting the feel of the aircraft first time and below 200ft. aircraft was laterally disturbed requiring correction which wasn't adequately coming from the PF and CM1 had to intervene he might as well have postponed the first landing of the FO to another day and completed the landing himself. Two people trying to maintain the center line nobody seems to have flared. 777 is a big aircraft to successfully do all that at such a low altitude. What happened to stabilized approach concept?

Last edited by vilas; 13th Jan 2019 at 04:35.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 10:03
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Interesting that, judging by the photos in post #2, the damage was sustained roughly in line with the bulk cargo door - several frames forward of the tailskid.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 10:27
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Why is that interesting?
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 10:44
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With a high rate of descent in conjunction with a nose high pitch attitude,
Interesting and unusual. I am aware of a tail scrape on a B777 landing due to the Vref speed manually inputted incorrectly. (Why do some people insist on manually knocking off a bit of weight for the descent and approach and typing in a revised landing weight instead of selecting the present weight figure which at worst will give you a 2 knot greater speed?)

My experiences of someone's first landing on type after a long flight is a tendency to under flare and a firm arrival. I wonder if the trainee on this flight flared late and continued to raise the nose as the wheels touched, possibly aided by a Captain rapidly increasing back pressure. I'd be interested in what the nose pitch was when the tail scraped. For a normal landing the nose is raised to no higher than 5 degrees and the tail would not scrape until at least 8 degrees pitch or so. An extended flare can lead to a tail strike but that would not give a firm landing.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:00
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
Why is that interesting?
I guess it's just my natural curiosity.

YMMV
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 16:20
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Just saw her the other day at HKIA, still outside Haeco, but after 60 days there, she just landed at YYZ as AC 2328
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 02:53
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What does a carrier like AC do with a pilot that caused that kind of of damage (or was at least in part responsible)?
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 04:51
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
YMMV
Dave, is seems quite typical of landing and bounce scrapes. The tailskid is mounted to protect the impact point against takeoff tailstrikes. With MLG oleos extended, the geometry is different.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 06:53
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Originally Posted by physicus
What does a carrier like AC do with a pilot that caused that kind of of damage (or was at least in part responsible)?

Depends


We had a tailstrike event with a 777 on departure at my airline, there was extensive damage to the aircraft


In that case the crew went through some retraining in the sim and went back to the line


If either one of the Pilots had a ‘record’ of negative events there may have been a different outcome but management was very fair, obviously it wasn’t intentional so why throw away someone’s invaluable experience?


Of course it depends on the individual Airline
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 18:09
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent
Dave, is seems quite typical of landing and bounce scrapes. The tailskid is mounted to protect the impact point against takeoff tailstrikes. With MLG oleos extended, the geometry is different.
Spot on. Pretty much applies to all the stretched Boeings.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 15:31
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Originally Posted by Callsign Kilo
Although the report notes that Air Canada’s SOP is to disengage the autopilot at 400 AGL.
Surely that cannot be an actual SOP? That sounds exceptionally prescriptive and in today's more enlightened environment of encouraging hand-flying/reduced levels of automation/raw data etc when appropriate for the prevailing conditions, it sounds almost draconian for a western airline and totally out of line with best practise.
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 05:11
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Originally Posted by EI_DVM
Surely that cannot be an actual SOP? That sounds exceptionally prescriptive and in today's more enlightened environment of encouraging hand-flying/reduced levels of automation/raw data etc when appropriate for the prevailing conditions, it sounds almost draconian for a western airline and totally out of line with best practise.
You're correct. Our FOM encourages hand flying i am not on the 777, but what the boys and girls do after being in the air for 16 hours I am not sure I am on the 320. Some pilots disengage pretty late. Others will turn everything off above 10,000 when appropriate. I subscribe to the later personally, I like flying the bus raw data, AP and A/THR off I feel more in the loop of current performance. Some others will take over at minimums and leave A/THR engaged.

Regarding what happens to said pilot, my understanding is the skipper was close to retirement so unfortunately this was his last landing. The PF will probably get further coaching and released back to line indoc (if not already having done so).
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 08:42
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 10:26
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Originally Posted by CanadianAirbusPilot
Others will turn everything off above 10,000 when appropriate. I subscribe to the later personally, I like flying the bus raw data, AP and A/THR off I feel more in the loop of current performance.
See how many times you do that after doing a ULR flight. I'm tipping not even one.
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 03:36
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
Interesting and unusual. I am aware of a tail scrape on a B777 landing due to the Vref speed manually inputted incorrectly. (Why do some people insist on manually knocking off a bit of weight for the descent and approach and typing in a revised landing weight instead of selecting the present weight figure which at worst will give you a 2 knot greater speed?)
.
Because our system of box ticking compliance driven standards results in some parts of the program having a vice like grip on the trivial, without recognition of the attendant elevation of risks. Concentrating on one minor part of the system results in opportunity to miss the big picture items, woods v trees
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 15:25
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Originally Posted by greenfields
See how many times you do that after doing a ULR flight. I'm tipping not even one.
You’re probably right. For now I have no interest in overseas flying. One day the desire to make more money may have me bidding the 777/787 but for now, day flying and home most nights has me enjoying the non UlH flying.

I just wanted to correct the comment that AC mandates AP usuage. They encourage hand flying and each pilot can decide what he or she does with the automations with a few exceptions (CAT 2/3, RVSM and a few RNAV 1 operations where AP is encouraged but FD are mandated)
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 16:17
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Ground Contact Angles - Normal Landing
I think that ground contact at the angle of any of those lines would be an abnormal landing?
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 22:40
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Originally Posted by CanadianAirbusPilot

You’re probably right. For now I have no interest in overseas flying. One day the desire to make more money may have me bidding the 777/787 but for now, day flying and home most nights has me enjoying the non UlH flying.

I just wanted to correct the comment that AC mandates AP usuage. They encourage hand flying and each pilot can decide what he or she does with the automations with a few exceptions (CAT 2/3, RVSM and a few RNAV 1 operations where AP is encouraged but FD are mandated)
Just asking... You "must" use the A/P for a CAT II approach at Air Canada? Is this type dependant?
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 22:48
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In my major european airline, we have to fly CAT II with the AP in also. I assume it was a fairly common rule now? A few years ago it said we SHOULD fly CAT II with an AP and it should never be planned to be manually flown, now we don't practice it in the sim so the rules have changed meaning that anything tighter than CAT I (eg LTS/OTS etc) must be flown with the automatics.
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Old 21st Feb 2019, 23:16
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
I think that ground contact at the angle of any of those lines would be an abnormal landing?
Most 773 touchdown attitudes are between 3.5 and 5.0 degrees. higher than that is the result are worthy of analysis. To get a tail strike needs an extended float bleeding speed excessively, (each 5kts is another degree of attitude more or less) or an abrupt late flare at a low speed. A bounce and attempted flare to cushion the landing will result in reduced tail clearances. A very low touchdown sink rate can result in a pitch up on WOW logic triggering spoiler rise. The B777 is better than previous Boeings in that regard, but there is a pitch up moment at that time unless the gear has completed the ground stroke.

Crosswinds positively correlate to reduced tail clearances, although my data on that is at least 5 years out of date.

The lowest clearances that occur in normal operations is on takeoff, where a Vr error, or loss of airspeed following commencement of rotate can be nasty, but historically most strikes occur on landings where there is more clearance on a normally executed landing, but there is more variability in technique and dynamics resulting in speed variation in the flare, and variation in the pitch rate and attained pitch.

FWIW, adding a HUD makes it much easier to ensure that flares are appropriate, FPV remaining on the touchdown zone etc...
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