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Mid-air collision of 3 international flights averted over New Delhi!

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Mid-air collision of 3 international flights averted over New Delhi!

Old 30th Dec 2018, 06:16
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Mid-air collision of 3 international flights averted over New Delhi!

Looks like the airspace is getting tighter by the hour.

https://www.aninews.in/news/national...ource=inshorts
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 07:17
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According to the official, at the time of the incident, National Airlines' flight NCR 840 was on its way to Hong Kong from Bagram in Afghanistan while the KLM Flight KLM 875 was heading to Bangkok from Amsterdam. The Eva Air flight EVA 061 was flying to Vienna from Bangkok, the official said.
"First it was NCR 840, which was flying at flight level 310 (31,000 ft) and EVA 061 at flight level 320 (32,000 ft) which breached mandatory separation. The pilots of both the aircraft were alerted by the onboard TCAS warning system," the official said. Around the same time, the KLM flight was at 33,000 ft, he added.

Following the TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) warning, the pilot of NCR 840 sought to climb to 35,000 feet but was told to remain at that current level till the time it gets a go-ahead. "However, when the air traffic controller (ATC) observed it climbing, it was immediately asked to take a left turn. In the meantime, EVA also continued climbing at flight level 330, a level at which KLM was already flying, and at this time, another TCAS warning went off, alerting the pilots to steer the aircraft to a safer distance," the official said.

As the NCR 840 again descended to flight level 330, it came across the EVA flight, triggering another TCAS alarm, the official said.
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...planes-2701651

FL 330 KLM 875 ->
FL 320 <- EVA 061
FL 310 NCR 840 ->

Last edited by Plumb Bob; 30th Dec 2018 at 07:51.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 09:34
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Incident: NAC B744 near New Delhi on Dec 23rd 2018, climb without clearance causes loss of separation with two aircraft
By Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Dec 28th 2018 22:49Z, last updated Friday, Dec 28th 2018 22:54ZA NAC National Air Cargo Boeing 747-400, registration N919CA performing flight N8-840 from Bagram (Afghanistan) to Hong Kong (China), was enroute at FL310 about 65nm northeast of Delhi (India) when the crew requested to climb to FL350, ATC replied "Standby, expect FL350". The aircraft began the climb to FL350 however.

A KLM Boeing 777-300, registration PH-BVB performing flight KL-875 from Amsterdam (Netherlands) to Bangkok, was enroute at FL330 exactly above N919CA.

An Eva Air Boeing 777-300, registration B-16716 performing flight BR-61 from Bangkok (Thailand) to Vienna (Austria), was enroute at FL320 on the same airway in opposite direction.

When the 747 began the climb an alert activated at the controller's desk, who in response immediately turned the 747 to their left off the airway and as a precaution turned the Eva Air to their left, too. TCAS advisories occurred between the 747 and the two other 777s, the 747 reached a maximum FL330 then began to descend again already turned to their left and was subsequently cleared to climb to FL350.

All three aircraft continued to their destinations for safe landings.

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Old 30th Dec 2018, 09:51
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I stopped reading at "Stand by, expect FL350"...
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 10:36
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Originally Posted by mike current View Post
I stopped reading at "Stand by, expect FL350"...

yah, it's a bad call...I had an EY 320 departing Damascus read back an expect further climb...and next thing I know they climbed right up through my altitude, apparently ignoring the TCAS RA they must have been receiving as well...
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 11:04
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FR24 History?

Is there any FR24 experts that can dig up and post a couple of screen shots for us?
Sounds like a fun day at the Fair, rolercoaster and all!
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 11:30
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Is there any FR24 experts that can dig up and post a couple of screen shots for us?
Sounds like a fun day at the Fair, rolercoaster and all!
And you, BluSdUp, were the guy in another thread advocating TCAS as an alternative for aircraft to make approaches to a major airport which had an ATC systems failure! The above scenario enforces my point that TCAS is a useful aid but it's not by any means foolproof. In time, it will be interesting to see a factual report of the entire event.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 11:31
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Crossing traffic 1000ft above breaches mandatory separation?
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 11:38
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Crossing traffic 1000ft above breaches mandatory separation?
Yes, puzzled me too. Delhi airspace is RVSM and I would have thought all three of those aircraft were RVSM compliant. That's why I'm waiting for more facts about what triggered this incident.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 11:51
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
Is there any FR24 experts that can dig up and post a couple of screen shots for us?
Sounds like a fun day at the Fair, rolercoaster and all!
The Aviation Herald has one image that shows the positions quite neatly.
Incident: NAC B744 near New Delhi on Dec 23rd 2018, climb without clearance causes loss of separation with two aircraft
The reader's remarks below it (shown in anti-chronological order) strongly suggest what kind of misunderstanding developed resulting in the premature and unauthorized climb by the NCR 840 that created the loss of required separation.

Last edited by Plumb Bob; 30th Dec 2018 at 11:59. Reason: Anti-chronological order better worded
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 11:52
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What triggered this is not that difficult to understand: NAC boeing got a clearance: EXPECT to climb to FL350, and instead of waiting to be cleared to climb they just started to climb
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 12:11
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And some fabulous situational awareness to start with:
KLM ..... at FL330 exactly above N919CA.

Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 30th Dec 2018 at 12:41.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 13:06
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<<got a clearance: EXPECT to climb to FL350>>

I've never heard that before; sounds inherently dangerous.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 16:10
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At FL320 EVA (level) and NCR (climbing) were on reciprocal headings,half a minute or so apart, when evasive action started
NCR was now trailing KLM by a mile or two, having been overtaken by KLM 10 min. before.

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Old 30th Dec 2018, 17:15
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Originally Posted by Redbeard View Post
What triggered this is not that difficult to understand: NAC boeing got a clearance: EXPECT to climb to FL350, and instead of waiting to be cleared to climb they just started to climb
Redbeard

It's p*ss poor phraseology but if you, as a pilot, consider that to be a clearance-and I hope you don't and it's a language misunderstanding, you'd better be careful out there. It in no way constitutes a clearance. Did we learn nothing from Tenerife? If in doubt-ask
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 18:46
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offcourse i misread in my haste the article in the aviation herald, and after finishing safely 40 years as a pilot, offcourse it is not a clearance. Amazing that so called know it all’s , can only comment on that, while the real problem was offcourse the crew that started climbing.
so airbus321 have safe flights and know where your priorities should be
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 19:03
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Hotel Tango
With regards to Your post nr 7 here:
You got me wrong, I did NOT advocate using TCAS as a replacement for ATC in a procedure separated approach!
I did try to correct a rather scaremongering chap that claimed aircraft would collide over Birmingham , without ATC and or Radar at the field.
Glad to sort that misunderstanding.
Regards Cpt B
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 19:27
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Airbus a321.
Have You considered the fact that this is wrong terminology from ATC, due to the fact that one little Double transmission actually makes it sound like the format of a clearance, Ie: " NRC 840 ( Expect to) climb to FL350" the ( being the double)?
This is why I love the Dutch at Maastricht :" XYZ Request FL 350 to cruise "
MAS: " Expect so!"

Anyway, Airbus a321, when the day once come, and it will , when You make Your first mistake, lets hope it does not involve operating heavy machinery.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 19:39
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BluSdUp
Unfortunately, you were in such a hurry to insult me that you failed to understand the point of my post and that the extreme example I gave began with the word "IF". I did not suggest that it would happen but that it could happen. Many past aviation accidents have proved that anything can occur no matter how unlikely it may seem in theory. If you honestly believe that TCAS is 100% infallible in preventing a midair I beg to differ. Regardless what your personal point of view may be, there is no need to be insulting or condescending to make your point, especially when you failed to grasp the core issue which was that of liability.
Glad to sort that misunderstanding.
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 19:45
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[QUOTE " Expect so!"
][/QUOTE]

More non standard phraseology. How about "maintain FL??? I will call you when/if higher becomes available"
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