BHX ATC Down
In most situations I would agree with you, and ATC do a very good job. But in this situation I have to disagree with you. Ok, you can’t let aircraft get airborne in those circumstances, but diverting aircraft already on their way in is a step too far.
Aircraft don’t need ATC to fly, they don’t need ATC flight data, they don’t need their electronic strips. Last night, in those circumstances the only people that needed any of that were ATC. What they failed to realise was that those aircraft didn’t need ATC.
You imply that by losing their electronic strips the ATCOs suddenly lose all situational awareness, what happened to looking out of the window?
If if a pilot can’t navigate from the GROVE hold to the start of the 15 ILS without instantly crashing into another aircraft or falling out of the sky then one wonders what aviation has come to.
You say say that they called stop for a very good reason, I’m sure they did. However, those reasons had everything to do with ATC and nothing to do with safely flying an aircraft.
Aircraft don’t need ATC to fly, they don’t need ATC flight data, they don’t need their electronic strips. Last night, in those circumstances the only people that needed any of that were ATC. What they failed to realise was that those aircraft didn’t need ATC.
You imply that by losing their electronic strips the ATCOs suddenly lose all situational awareness, what happened to looking out of the window?
If if a pilot can’t navigate from the GROVE hold to the start of the 15 ILS without instantly crashing into another aircraft or falling out of the sky then one wonders what aviation has come to.
You say say that they called stop for a very good reason, I’m sure they did. However, those reasons had everything to do with ATC and nothing to do with safely flying an aircraft.
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Jonty, you're getting way out of your depth now. If there are no written procedures for such eventualities, controllers cannot just go ahead and basically make them up as they go. Just imagine the legal implications, not to mention the public outcry, if something went pear shape which resulted in a mid air right over the city of Birmingham (seeing as 15 was in use apparently)! If the system is out and no procedural back-up exists, diversion is the only safe and legal option.
Avoid imitations
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It seems that you are saying that once an ATC unit transfers to electronic strips there is no going back and no back up.
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@Jonty, you are wrong, commercial aircraft require a properly licenced airfield for insurance reasons and that will include the provision of ATC and fire cover.
@ShyTorque, where I worked, there was a manual backup, failures required a "stop" at first and a gradual recovery as we reverted to pen and paper.
Merry Christmas to you all.
@ShyTorque, where I worked, there was a manual backup, failures required a "stop" at first and a gradual recovery as we reverted to pen and paper.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Electronic strips allowed most support staff to be laid off. Reversion to manual with nobody available to manually recieve and process the the data would be a bit tricky.
Avoid imitations
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Strange times we live and fly in.
Aircraft are mandated to have duplicated / standby systems or manual reversion.
As pilots we have to be able to fly manually if the autopilot fails.
We also have to be able to revert to other means of getting from A to B and landing if our primary navigation aids fail, even stop watch and compass dead reckoning.
Any failure in an aircraft (and like anything mechanical, electrical or electronic things do fail) is likely to affect just that one aircraft.
Yet a critical ATC main system, which if it does fail, affects all aircraft under its supervision, doesn't have any manual backup?
Crazy.
Aircraft are mandated to have duplicated / standby systems or manual reversion.
As pilots we have to be able to fly manually if the autopilot fails.
We also have to be able to revert to other means of getting from A to B and landing if our primary navigation aids fail, even stop watch and compass dead reckoning.
Any failure in an aircraft (and like anything mechanical, electrical or electronic things do fail) is likely to affect just that one aircraft.
Yet a critical ATC main system, which if it does fail, affects all aircraft under its supervision, doesn't have any manual backup?
Crazy.
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Jonty, you're getting way out of your depth now. If there are no written procedures for such eventualities, controllers cannot just go ahead and basically make them up as they go. Just imagine the legal implications, not to mention the public outcry, if something went pear shape which resulted in a mid air right over the city of Birmingham (seeing as 15 was in use apparently)! If the system is out and no procedural back-up exists, diversion is the only safe and legal option.
This is an airport and possibly a NATS UK Ltd failure to be able to cope with a relatively trivial non-nominal occurrence.
Jonty, you're getting way out of your depth now. If there are no written procedures for such eventualities, controllers cannot just go ahead and basically make them up as they go. Just imagine the legal implications, not to mention the public outcry, if something went pear shape which resulted in a mid air right over the city of Birmingham (seeing as 15 was in use apparently)! If the system is out and no procedural back-up exists, diversion is the only safe and legal option.
Ian W has got it spot on, and it’s a disgrace. Birmingham ATC should be sent the bill.
I’m afraid I’m with Jonty on this one. There was radar, aircraft were easily identifiable and separable - who gives a **** about a flight plan or not? Supposing the systems in the whole UK went down; what are we supposed to do, stay in the air indefinitely until it’s sorted?
You get better service in darkest Africa...
You get better service in darkest Africa...
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EGBB ATC is NOT provided by NATS.
Nobody who works at EGBB has confirmed whether the code/callsign database for the radar was still available, they could easily have lost ALL flight data, we just do not know.
The safest option is to handle what you already have and not accept any more traffic until the contingency is in place.
Nobody who works at EGBB has confirmed whether the code/callsign database for the radar was still available, they could easily have lost ALL flight data, we just do not know.
The safest option is to handle what you already have and not accept any more traffic until the contingency is in place.
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Nobody who works at EGBB has confirmed whether the code/callsign database for the radar was still available, they could easily have lost ALL flight data, we just do not know.
Why would there be a midair over Birmingham? The radar hadn’t failed.
where I worked, there was a manual backup, failures required a "stop" at first and a gradual recovery as we reverted to pen and paper.
Really. Well, their already getting screwed by all other sorts of climate gubbins, I guess actually getting to their destination for another fiver would be seen as a BONUS!
Interesting how the guys in Anchorage were able to provide ATC services from a pickup truck parked at the edge of a runway after their control tower had to be abandoned due to the earthquake.........
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A few years ago BHX tower had such an exercise:
"Birmingham tower is evacuated, all stations monitor tower frequency, procedural arrivals and departures in place."
Was great fun that night, but only a practice...
"Birmingham tower is evacuated, all stations monitor tower frequency, procedural arrivals and departures in place."
Was great fun that night, but only a practice...
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Fat Controller.
You are ever so wrong .
There is no ATC required for Commercial operation into an airfield.
How do you operate into half or more of the no radar, no control zone fields allover the world?
Its called AFIS units ,Unicom, Company Fq etc.
Yes they have to have basic Fire and rescue services.
What is required in the UK now that could be much different, indeed.
You are ever so wrong .
There is no ATC required for Commercial operation into an airfield.
How do you operate into half or more of the no radar, no control zone fields allover the world?
Its called AFIS units ,Unicom, Company Fq etc.
Yes they have to have basic Fire and rescue services.
What is required in the UK now that could be much different, indeed.
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Even if the BHX radar was down I don't get what the big issue is. I arrive via a IFR radar service through a NATS high level controller and get cleared to the hold. Contact the BHX controller with who I am and the latest ATIS, aircraft type etc and then we shuttle down in the hold until we reach the bottom and shoot an approach. Call fully established and get given a DME to position report so the next one can do the same behind me. Tower can look out the window and see me coming and clear me to land. They can increase the separation to allow for a departure inbetween and the climbing traffic will pick up their radar service once airborne on the SID.
