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BHX ATC Down

Old 26th Dec 2018, 13:27
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
Fat Controller.
You are ever so wrong .
There is no ATC required for Commercial operation into an airfield.
How do you operate into half or more of the no radar, no control zone fields allover the world?
Its called AFIS units ,Unicom, Company Fq etc.
Yes they have to have basic Fire and rescue services.
What is required in the UK now that could be much different, indeed.
The thread is about EGBB, which is in the UK

ATC IS required for operations to continue, the procedures between the ATC centres and the airfield require it.

If the failure required movements to stop, as it did, that is what happens.

Full stop for this case.

I am fully aware of what happens elsewhere in the world.
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Old 26th Dec 2018, 16:21
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
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WWW
Even thinking of posting such a thing would get my post deleted!
But since You started: One has to wonder!

F Controller
The UK has indeed a few peculiar exceptions and additions to standard ICAO.
I had the pleasure to do an AirReg course and exam for 2 days in the spring of 1999 for a validation at Suckling Airways and then being stationed in Glasgow. Coming from Norway as a TRE and a JarOps Head of training in the same aircraft I have to say it was a treat!
Half of the stuff made no sense whatsoever. The other half, cool.
Also did FAA 3 months later, now there is a practical approach,,,,,
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Old 26th Dec 2018, 18:03
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Some baffling posts in this thread, many thanks to all contributors who have given me a chuckle.
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Old 27th Dec 2018, 00:08
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Hotel Tango
Sir
Can You google TCAS for me!
Ah yes, the famous TCAS, God's gift to pilots to replace air traffic control! Works very well when both parties follow their respective RAs. Unfortunately that hasn't always been the case, with catastrophic results. And speaking of talking rubbish, Mr BluSdUp Sir, dude, TCAS was never designed as a substitute for an ATC radar service.
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Old 27th Dec 2018, 19:39
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Do we know what actually failed yet? Was it the Radar Data Processing System, the Code-Callsign Data-Base, The Flight Plan System, or the Electronic Flight Progress Strip System? Was the failure at the EGBB end, the NATS end, or somewhere in-between?
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Old 27th Dec 2018, 21:03
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Birmingham is an airport where the management has sweated the assets to appease their shareholders. The lack of investment and poor management was quite staggering.
Having been based there the standard of atc was at best mediocre and it was quite common to be turned onto the ILS at least 1500 feet high.
The farce over the runway extension and the continued non availability of the glideslope on 33 for what is now running into years is indicative of the shambles engenedered by the senior management. Whilst they were doing this they decided to close the short route through the hedge into the staff car park. Rather than put in a proper entrance the airport put in cctv to monitor anybody using this short route and take away ID cards of anybody caught using it.
I am not surprised that there has been an infrastructure failure, but I bet the last Chief Exec left with a nice bonus.
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Old 27th Dec 2018, 23:31
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Edinburgh
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Working at an airfield that has manual reversion and still trains for procedural approaches.

Average gap between successive arrivals under radar control - 2 minutes.

Average gap between successive arrivals under procedural control - 10 minutes

Number 3 in the stack after an indeterminate delay to go to manual reversion - EAT + 30 minutes.

Hope you guys have fuel planned for this!
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Old 28th Dec 2018, 22:21
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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How do you fuel plan for an indeterminate delay?
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 00:07
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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That’s my point. You wouldn’t have.

Even with ATC contingency procedures in place for such an event, when it happens it is unexpected. The stacks would rapidly fill and the majority of the traffic would have to divert anyway due to fuel issues.

in a Radar environment a conservative 15 inbounds per hour can be easily dealt with. In a procedural environment the last aircraft could be looking at a 2 and a half hour delay.
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 16:23
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tubby linton View Post
Having been based there the standard of atc was at best mediocre


Don't agree with this whatsoever, Flying out of BHX in noisy purple things the standard of ATC is excellent as good as anywhere in the UK, just because you have a beef with the management don't drag our fellow professionals into it
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 17:36
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
Don't agree with this whatsoever, Flying out of BHX in noisy purple things the standard of ATC is excellent as good as anywhere in the UK, just because you have a beef with the management don't drag our fellow professionals into it
I will quote one example for you
I was given an incorrect departure clearance three times despite repeatedly querying it and it was only resolved on transfer to London. It was reported as an MOR by me. Following an investigation I had a reply from the head of safety of my airline, which was quite unusual as replies from ASR/MOR investigations were normally from an analyst , stating that he was very disappointed to read the poor response from the BHX ATC manager.
The reply from them failed to explain why the event had happened or what was going to be done about it, or any lessons they could learn from it.
He was very surprised at the lack of openness from a UK ATC unit.


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Old 29th Dec 2018, 17:50
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Working at an airfield that has manual reversion and still trains for procedural approaches.

Average gap between successive arrivals under radar control - 2 minutes.

Average gap between successive arrivals under procedural control - 10 minutes
I fly to quite a few non-radar airfields around the world and that seems a long time? The next aircraft is 30-40 track miles away when the previous one touches down. Why such a big gap (genuine question)?
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 20:12
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
Don't agree with this whatsoever, Flying out of BHX in noisy purple things the standard of ATC is excellent as good as anywhere in the UK, just because you have a beef with the management don't drag our fellow professionals into it
This I agree with, can't say I've ever come across any "mediocre" standards from EGBB.

Do like the "noisy purple things" comment though!!! Kudos!
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Old 29th Dec 2018, 23:53
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Originally Posted by FullWings View Post
I fly to quite a few non-radar airfields around the world and that seems a long time? The next aircraft is 30-40 track miles away when the previous one touches down. Why such a big gap (genuine question)?
i admit its pedantic but this is a radar environment where revision to procedural control will happen once in a blue moon and so procedures are kept simple.

Holding over the beacon, if you are lucky get cleared for the procedure just as you go beacon outbound. 180 degree rate one turn ( 1 minute ) 10 mile outbound leg ( 3.5 minutes ), 180 degree rate one turn ( 1 minute ) on to 10 mile final ( 3.5 minutes )
based on an average ground speed of 180 knots ( 9 minutes ). By the time you take into account various ground speeds, winds, clearance for the approach when not yet at the beacon etc then simulated experience shows an average of 10 minutes.

According to the rules we could start the next aircraft on the procedure when the first is at 4 miles from touchdown but this time is usually used to launch departures.
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