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Air India B788 descends to 200 ft over water at HKG

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Air India B788 descends to 200 ft over water at HKG

Old 5th Dec 2018, 19:13
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Air India B788 descends to 200 ft over water at HKG

On 20 October 2018, an Air India Boeing 787-8 aircraft, registration VT-ANE, flight number AI314 descended below the glideslope on approach to HKG. Crew went around but came within 200 feet of the water:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=219044

(Incidentally the same a/c as the one involved in the incident at ARN recently Air India plane DEL-ARN gets stuck in building)
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 19:39
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Serious Incident Bulletin 6/2018
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 21:33
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"possible glide path fluctuation"...possibly this affected things?
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 22:22
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Ground prox warning alerted the crew...nothing from ATC?

The ac descended rapidly to 200' AGL? Dive to intercept at 2.6nm?
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 02:27
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Glide path fluctuations on 07R HKG are a known phenomenon, hence the broadcast on ATIS. Surely in those circumstances you would brief accordingly and be primed to disconnect the AP as soon as you noticed an abnormal behaviour rather than watching the manoeuvre - the vis was 10k...?
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 04:11
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VHHH 07R is normally used for departure or cargo aircraft as it is next to the freight apron. Unusual to get it for normal arrivals. 07L has frequent windshear so you can't win.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 06:38
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Is there an RNAV approach available for 07R? Why not prepare for that?

Two warnings for glide path fluctuations with more than suitable weather for an RNAV approach makes it the sensible option surely?

Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 6th Dec 2018 at 07:54.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 07:19
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Originally Posted by underfire View Post
Ground prox warning alerted the crew...nothing from ATC?
ATC is normally not monitoring the glide , just azimuth . In addition even if they did , the transponder mode S ALT will need to be detected normally by a rotating SSR antenna, so would take a few seconds to be displayed and another few to transmit the info which would likely be : XXX check or confirm altitude. , GPWS is much faster . It worked well here. Good reaction from the crew, Lesson to be learned ? Oh yes, these cautions warnings on the ATIS to start with More aimed at waiving responsibility from the Airport, authorities than helping the crews. .
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 07:42
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In report linked with message above is stated that ATC also informed crew about fluctuation, just before they cleared them for approach.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 08:27
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Does it make sense to monitor distance v altitude: OH YES!

Wonder why so many of our LTC/TRI/TRE advise cadets and old folks' like me there is no need to do so once GS captured as ILS has a sufficient protected area...
Please allow me to do at least the odd check as per old days, it could prevent the EGPWS sounding in the first place, avoiding such a low recovery requirement.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 09:00
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Does it make sense to monitor distance v altitude: OH YES!
Sounds good in theory, but not a lot of time to continually be doing your 318.4 times table down final. Even with the table on the chart, itís not practical to be continually monitoring it, especially in good weather. Speed, thrust and rate-of-descent (and the view out the window) would be the indicators something was amiss.
Looks like in this case the GS went for a ride and the autopilot obliged. The crew recovered and regrouped.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 09:07
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Wonder why so many of our LTC/TRI/TRE advise cadets and old folks' like me there is no need to do so once GS captured as ILS has a sufficient protected area...
Iíd say it is taught, certainly my airline has an SOP for it - however this generally happens at 4mn and relates to an OM or chart published point. Certainly carries significantly more relevance when in IMC. Not sure what the cloud ceiling was here but these guys had 10K viz. Still reckon airmanship dictates that the ILS was the wrong choice of approach. Airmanship, now thereís a thing!
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 09:14
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If you know there is a possible problem with the G/S signal and no other type of approach is available, why not hand fly the aircraft?
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 09:51
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Is there an RNAV approach available for 07R? Why not prepare for that ?
RNAV approaches in VHHH are approval required, possibly they weren't authorized ? There is a VOR approach available for 07L but not for 07R. Downgrading to a LOC approach would be an option.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 10:08
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You just never know when the technology is going to try to kill you!

Jet Jockey, you'll be put in the sinbin for suggesting that.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 10:14
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Why not do a LOC approach??
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 10:54
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Downgrading to a LOC approach would be an option..
My point . ,It makes little sense to me to warn on the ATIS and on the frequency there is a GS problem and leave it to the crews to decide to use it or not. In an ideal Safety conscious world either the GS is U/S or it is calibrated and working.
Relying of a unreliable signal to make an instrument APP is not really my cup of (Chinese) tea.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:24
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
ATC is normally not monitoring the glide , just azimuth . In addition even if they did , the transponder mode S ALT will need to be detected normally by a rotating SSR antenna, so would take a few seconds to be displayed and another few to transmit the info which would likely be : XXX check or confirm altitude. , GPWS is much faster . It worked well here. Good reaction from the crew, Lesson to be learned ? Oh yes, these cautions warnings on the ATIS to start with More aimed at waiving responsibility from the Airport, authorities than helping the crews. .
Looking at airport layout it seems like 07R is the departing runway. So as the weather is good they can land 07R while still having a 747 hold short of the runway on the south side of the runway where the glideslope antenna is located. Which obviously screws up the signal.

Would probably be prudent to just switch off the glideslope when the ceiling allows LOC approaches, especially if that problem occurs regularly. Or just keep the area in front of the glideslope antenna clear even when the weather is good.

And while the reaction to being low was good, being so low in the first place while the runway is in sight not so great though.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:29
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Why not just fix the problem with G/S. It cannot be that difficult. Or just say G/S not available. It is another case of making holes in the system for some one to fall through one day. This time the pax were lucky. Still pilots get blamed for failing to see the ditch.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/66967735.cms
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 12:10
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I thought the same but have seen myself sometimes how the airport relies on pilot feedback to determine the health of the system. Bit of a catch 22
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