Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air Astana flight serious problems over Lisbon

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air Astana flight serious problems over Lisbon

Old 14th Nov 2018, 14:29
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asia
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Some real serious piloting went on during that flight!!!

What a great outcome.
Sikpilot is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 16:38
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: wherever
Age: 55
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cappt
Not an Embraer pilot, disconnecting the FCM and flying in direct mode as they did, would that have taken the spoilerons out of the loop leaving with them with just the reversed ailerons? Wow, what a fantastic flying job by this crew! I'm sure we will be studying this for years to come as an example of exceptional decision making and CRM.
In direct mode the spoilers will still operate for roll but at a fixed gain rather than speed sensitive.
FE Hoppy is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 16:48
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Machinbird
In the configuration pictured in the synoptic page, the spoilers would be creating adverse yaw, while the ailerons would be rolling the aircraft (the wrong way). On instruments, I suspect the adverse yaw would play with your mind and make it even harder to keep the wings level.
Good thing they didn't crash right after rotation and were thus able to eventually work out their problems sufficiently to calm down a bit and land the aircraft.
The spoilers make proverse yaw, the way we want it. Yoke right, right spoilers up, more drag on the right side, right yaw.
Vessbot is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 17:20
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: FNC/LPMA
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I guess the bank angle protection only made things way worse trying to level up but instead increasing the roll. What a nightmare...

Last edited by MountainSnake; 14th Nov 2018 at 23:59. Reason: Spelling
MountainSnake is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 18:40
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PPRUNE seems to be a credible source of information : https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/air-astana-plane-pilots-lose-control-portugal-flightpath-embraer-190-a8629491.html
MartinAOA is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 19:26
  #86 (permalink)  
txl
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Berlin
Age: 55
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by netra
nope. according Kazakh news (unfortunately I can't provide source due to post restriction) the flightcrew was 40 y/c Captain (he looks more Russian than Kazakh to me) and two Kazakh FOs. the Brit was one of 4 engineers on board.
Thanks, Netra. Can you send me a PM with the link?
txl is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 20:12
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flight control check?

If this was just out of maintenance, wouldn't a "free and correct" check of the controls be on the to-do list prior to departure?

I'm not putting the blame on the pilots ... it just seems like an omission that could have been easily spotted.
EternalNY1 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 22:45
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Madrid
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by EternalNY1
If this was just out of maintenance, wouldn't a "free and correct" check of the controls be on the to-do list prior to departure?

I'm not putting the blame on the pilots ... it just seems like an omission that could have been easily spotted.
well, it is not the first time someone take off with missed items...
robskye is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 05:39
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Vessbot
The spoilers make proverse yaw, the way we want it. Yoke right, right spoilers up, more drag on the right side, right yaw.
Only problem is, on this aircraft, in the problem configuration, yoke right, aircraft rolls left, spoilers create right yaw. Somehow, that doesn't feel like balanced flight to me, therefore the reason for my statement.
The thought of bank angle protection operating in that environment scares me, and I'm relatively fearless.
Machinbird is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 05:54
  #90 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's Sean's turn
Posts: 1,870
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by MountainSnake
I guess the bank angle protection only made things way worse trying to level up but instead increasing the roll. What a nightmare...
It’s been a while but iirc there is no bank angle protection.
Chesty Morgan is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 05:56
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Machinbird
Only problem is, on this aircraft, in the problem configuration, yoke right, aircraft rolls left, spoilers create right yaw. Somehow, that doesn't feel like balanced flight to me, therefore the reason for my statement.
The thought of bank angle protection operating in that environment scares me, and I'm relatively fearless.
The rollspoilers also create a roll tendency by reducing the lift of the wing.
So basicly, when using small inputs, the airplane will roll in the wrong direction because only the aileron actuates.
When using larger inputs the spoilers will have more authority than the aileron, reversing the roll in the right direction. Crazy flying.
SigWit is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 06:00
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Angel

'Bank Angle' is an alert only. There's no protection in roll. The wing will go down until you stop it.

I'm sure there is much more to this than "just" the aileron issue. Maybe weather, maybe crew, maybe something else.

Just giving thanks that they all survived.
Nomad2 is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 07:57
  #93 (permalink)  
txl
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Berlin
Age: 55
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Here's the Kazakh report about the Captain (Russian) that Netra mentioned as well as a half decent Google translation. According to another report from the same source, the airline suspects errors during C-Check maintenance as a probable cause.
txl is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:21
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: S E Asia
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Am I correct in thinking that an A320 had a similar issue following maitnenance with reverse connected roll control surfaces on a pax flight out of LGW several years ago? Or is my memory at fault?
7B
777boyo is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:24
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: XFW, Germany
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 777boyo
Am I correct in thinking that an A320 had a similar issue following maitnenance with reverse connected roll control surfaces on a pax flight out of LGW several years ago? Or is my memory at fault?
7B
via AVH https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...a-a320-130318/
PAXfips is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:30
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 58
Posts: 1,903
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Do we have any idea what happened (short of "maintenance error")?!
atakacs is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:46
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,532
Received 72 Likes on 41 Posts
No wonder they had control problems with a control column shaped like that!
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 10:22
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Hartley Wintney .UK
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Fantastic effort by the crew to 'recover' from this problem.
Maintenance Contractor may well have some awkward questions to answer.
Paranoid is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 10:36
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: It used to be an island...
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How many previous crossed-cable incidents happened on aircraft that also had roll spoilers? Most of the types mentioned above predate automated roll spoilers.

As noted above, if the sense of the controls is exactly reversed you might get used to it (for example using the one hand on each column method) but if the controls essentially reverse authority as you command more roll (due to the ailerons being overpowered by the roll spoilers) then you're in a very rarely explored situation. If there are some exceptional-airmanship awards being handed out, these guys should be near the front of the line.
nicolai is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:24
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,861
Likes: 0
Received 233 Likes on 99 Posts
. If there are some exceptional-airmanship awards being handed out, these guys should be near the front of the line.
Possibly. If we draw a line after the pre flight control check, post maintenance.
Icarus2001 is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.