Air Astana flight serious problems over Lisbon

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by JanetFlight

One of the four tonneaux ended at around 4000ft on a 90º nose down attitude.

I'm guessing that you're using "tonneaux" in the French sense of "barrel" (i.e. roll) and/or "somersault". Sounds extremely scary.

Swapped aileron controls (so when a right input, the a/c would turn left and vice-versa)

In the good old days of cable-and-pulley flying controls, after a few similar events systems were designed so that it was physically impossible to connect them in a reversed sense. It sounds like in today's FBW world, Murphy is alive and well and back in business.

[Icarus2001]

In the good old days of cable-and-pulley flying controls

Well you will pleased to know that the Embraer 190 uses "conventional" control cables to the ailerons.

The original Fly By Wire.

[SigWit]

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

I would like to hear from an Embraer 170/190 pilot as to whether they even have that.



You do know that all modern jet aircraft have a completely independent standby attitude reference system right? How long do you think they would last in IMC without attitude reference?

Aviaddicts ? ejet:iess

Yes, the E190 can revert to direct mode, where it translates control inputs to fixed control surface deflections.

[Icarus2001]

Thank you. So there are none of the more exotic flight modes that seem to cause so much confusion "occasionally"on the Airbus ? My understanding was that Embraer followed the Boeing model.

[IcePack]

Being an Airbus pilot, some time ago we learnt a lot about control checks, How & at what point they should be done due this https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...le-a320-27985/ (sorry could not find on aaib uk)

Does the Embraer have maintenance modes for the flight controls as the reported symptoms seem similar.

[Klimax]

If it was actually an aileron revers direction situation, I would have thought this would have been displayed on the synoptics during the flight controls check. Does the E190 aircraft not have a clear synoptic display for flight controls? Does the E190 synoptic display indicate actual deflection of the surfaces?

[SigWit]

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

Thank you. So there are none of the more exotic flight modes that seem to cause so much confusion "occasionally"on the Airbus ? My understanding was that Embraer followed the Boeing model.

There are two modes: Normal mode, where the Flight Control Modules process the flight control inputs and provides the processed inputs to the Actuator Control Electronics.
And then there is Direct mode, where the FCM's are left out of the equation and the flight control inputs are send unprocessed to the ACE's

[Nomad2]

Flight controls check is part of the after start checks on every startup. Reversed ailerons would show up very clearly.
Ailerons are conventional cables with hydraulic power, but the tail is FBW.

[Icarus2001]

Reversed ailerons would show up very clearly.

Indeed. As would pitot covers on an Airbus 330 sitting on the ramp but one must look...

[Sqwak7700]

Don’t know if the 190 suffered from the same issue as the 145 series, but being that they where probably light weight and high thrust TO, I wonder if they flew out of the trim motor’s capabilities.

Eagle Flight 230 out of ORD back in late 2000 or 2001. Have a read of that accident report. The ATC tape with radar data is floating around as well. Very similar with gyrations and several climbs and descents trying to control the aircraft. FAA almost grounded the type since after powering down all components worked just fine and “could not duplicate”.

Basically, crew late to trim the stab after TO, the control force by then strong enough to disable the main trim. Crew quick to try the standby trim, before reducing airspeed to reduce control load, so now standby trim also disabled. The 145 series ended up with a placard to ensure trimming after takeoff before getting too fast.

[SigWit]

Originally Posted by Nomad2

Flight controls check is part of the after start checks on every startup. Reversed ailerons would show up very clearly.
Ailerons are conventional cables with hydraulic power, but the tail is FBW.

The spoilers are also FBW.

[Capn Bloggs]

Swapped aileron controls (so when a right input, the a/c would turn left and vice-versa)

Now I suppose you lot know how to fly in this scenario? Say the Captain is PF: he leans over and grabs the inside horn of the opposite pilot's yoke with his right hand, and grabs his own inside horn with his left hand, then steers normally ie to bank right, left hand up, right hand down. You could do that in the Embraer, even with those silly angled control columns...

NB: not applicable to Scarebus.

[411A NG]

Didn't a reverse-aileron cabling issue almost bring down a Lufthansa A320 some time ago?
I believe one of the sidesticks was wired wrongly to its ELAC, resulting in inversed aileron control (but correct spoiler activation?). Basically a screw-up during maintenance where the plug of the sidestick got rewired.
PNF took control after PF noticed the issues shortly after takeoff with not a lot of height remaining.
I believe since then, the flight control check procedure was modified as a result.

[Icarus2001]

Very difficult to believe that this was "just" a case of reversed roll sense, especially looking at the altitude excursions.

[Afasa]

Everything happens during the passage of a weather front in the area, althought not seeing very aggressive CBs the visibility should be very bad because it was a high moisture tropical air mass with persistent clouds and rain

I dont have permissions to publish links, so please add https stuff at the beginning
(and maybe someone can re-publish the links)

Weather radar:
i.imgur.com/BbJzRfM.gif

An Airforce video of the landing:
http://www.publico.pt/2018/11/12/vid...0181112-120548

[SigWit]

Originally Posted by Coanda_effect

Large altitude excursions are due to 90 degrees bank angle or possible barrel rolls. It happens to me to know that it's not a problem to re-learn to fly with inverse controls. The huge problem is to understand what it's happening, before the crash.

Flying with inverted controls is extremely difficult.
Try riding your bike and crossing your arms on the steer, let us know how that went down

[golfyankeesierra]

Swapped controls

Lufthansa had it once on an A320 after maintenance on a sidestick.
I believe the connectors didn’t fit so the engineer made them fit...
cross-wired-controls-almost-bring-down-lufthansa-a320

[Klimax]

Originally Posted by golfyankeesierra

Lufthansa had it once on an A320 after maintenance on a sidestick.
I believe the connectors didn’t fit so the engineer made them fit...
cross-wired-controls-almost-bring-down-lufthansa-a320

Wow. reading that article, it states that pilots usually only check for deflection, but not direction... Really? Really? Is that what professional pilots do? I don't think so. A mistake (as in mistakenly overlooking) is one thing, but to actually intentionally only look for deflection, is not what a pro commercial pilot does!

[The Ancient Geek]

Easily done with one man looking and one man on the stick - expecting what you expect to see.

[JanetFlight]

With so many G forces suffered, really doubt will ever fly again...
On another hand, some rwy edge lights gone upon td...heres a clip taken from our F16s.

https://www.facebook.com/diariodoale...ric&__tn__=R-R