Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta
Pitot Covers and Bugs
The likelihood of a blocked pitot depends on how industrious the local bugs are, but pitots blocked by insects are rare in temperate climates. It could be quite different in the tropics.
In this case we have pitots mounted on the fin to provide data to the STS, which leads to questions:
Static ports are commonly covered for maintenance and testing. Aero Peru is just one example of how badly that can turn out in flight.
It's possible that the front pitot-static system was functional while the STS system was not, or vice versa. The confusion that might produce can only be imagined.
The tendency is that PF will believe his own airspeed over the others. It takes some serious CRM to work out which airspeed, if any, is the good one when one or more are bad.
In this case we have pitots mounted on the fin to provide data to the STS, which leads to questions:
- Are covers mounted?
- Are STS pitots inspected pre flight?
Static ports are commonly covered for maintenance and testing. Aero Peru is just one example of how badly that can turn out in flight.
It's possible that the front pitot-static system was functional while the STS system was not, or vice versa. The confusion that might produce can only be imagined.
The tendency is that PF will believe his own airspeed over the others. It takes some serious CRM to work out which airspeed, if any, is the good one when one or more are bad.
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My bet would be the crew was not briefed and was not aware of the previous flight’s issues. And that the previous flight returned to normalcy after it gained altitude and that crew continued to destination and made a report
The plane was given a quick look and nothing of substance found and put back in service
When China Airlines had a spate of accidents back in the day I believe they hired Lufthansa to help them get the airline back in shape
Lion could use expertise from a company like JetBlue or Southwest to get their operations in order
Could be pilots are not trained well enough to handle various emergencies and perhaps there are punishments for emergency landings that were later found to not be needed
There are many issues to look at at Lion me thinks
The plane was given a quick look and nothing of substance found and put back in service
When China Airlines had a spate of accidents back in the day I believe they hired Lufthansa to help them get the airline back in shape
Lion could use expertise from a company like JetBlue or Southwest to get their operations in order
Could be pilots are not trained well enough to handle various emergencies and perhaps there are punishments for emergency landings that were later found to not be needed
There are many issues to look at at Lion me thinks
Last edited by armchairpilot94116; 4th Nov 2018 at 15:17.
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My bet would be the crew was not briefed and was not aware of the previous flight’s issues. And that the previous flight returned to normalcy after it gained altitude and that crew continued to destination and made a report
The plane was given a quick look and nothing of substance found and put back in service
The plane was given a quick look and nothing of substance found and put back in service
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Given their appalling incident/accident record the question is why they were allowed to continue operating at all.
Any Western Airline with a similar record would have had their AOC cancelled imho.
Plenty of questions for the CAA who appeared to have turned a blind eye to what was going on.
Yes, as you would know if you read the thread.
And they likely had a doctor, an accountant, a banker and a travelling salesman, too. What's your point ?
"engineer on the flight" < > "flight engineer". What difference would you expect the flying spanner in Row 23 to make to the outcome ?
And they likely had a doctor, an accountant, a banker and a travelling salesman, too. What's your point ?
"engineer on the flight" < > "flight engineer". What difference would you expect the flying spanner in Row 23 to make to the outcome ?
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Sorry to not be clear
I did indeed mean “flight/maintenance engineer” as mentioned up-thread per avherald, placed onboard as “anticipatory measure”.
....mostly to rebut the notion that FC had not read the log or been prepared for similar issues to the prior flight.
....mostly to rebut the notion that FC had not read the log or been prepared for similar issues to the prior flight.
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Seems that some data has been recovered:
Photo: Indonesian navy frogmen try to retrieve debris from the water during a search operation. (AP: Tatan Syuflana) Related Story: Doomed Lion Air plane probably found at bottom of Java Sea, says Indonesian militaryRelated Story: Crashed plane was brand new, but had 'technical issue' on previous flightRelated Story: Indonesian rescue diver dies while searching for victims of Lion Air jet crashInvestigators have retrieved hours of data from the flight recorder of the Lion Air jet that crashed off Jakarta on October 29, killing 189 people on board.
The news came as Indonesian authorities on Sunday extended the search at sea for victims and debris.
National Transportation Safety Committee deputy chairman Haryo Satmiko told a news conference that 69 hours of flight data was downloaded from the recorder including its fatal flight.
The Boeing 737 MAX 8 jet crashed just minutes after take-off from Jakarta on October 29 in the country's worst airline disaster since 1997.
The flight data recorder was recovered by divers on Thursday in damaged condition and investigators said it required special handling to retrieve its information.
The second black box — a cockpit voice recorder — has not been recovered but searchers are focusing on a particular area based on a weak locator signal.
"From here we will analyse what happened to that flight," Nurcahyo Utomo, head of Indonesia's transportation safety committee, told reporters.
Analysis of the data and a recovered aircraft landing gear and engine will begin on Monday and information will be passed to police if needed, Mr Utomo said..
Mr Syaugi paid tribute to a volunteer diver, Syahrul Anto, who died during the search effort on Friday.
The family of the 48-year-old refused an autopsy and he was buried on Saturday in Surabaya.
As of Sunday a total of 105 body bags, few containing intact remains, had been recovered and handed to police for forensic identification, yet only 14 victims had been identified.
"I'm sure the total will increase," Mr Syaugi said, adding remains were also now washing up on land.
The second black box is thought to be around 50 metres from the main search area, where the water is only 30 metres deep, but ocean currents and mud on the sea bed that is more than a metre deep have complicated search efforts.
Mr Syaugi said a considerable amount of aircraft "skin" was found on the sea floor but not a large intact part of its fuselage as he had indicated was possible on Saturday.
Flight tracking websites show the plane had erratic speed and altitude during its fatal 13-minute flight and a previous flight the day before from Bali to Jakarta.
Passengers on the Bali flight reported terrifying descents and in both cases the different cockpit crews requested to return to their departure airport shortly after take-off.
Lion Air has claimed a technical problem was fixed after the Bali fight.
The first crash of a Boeing 737 MAX is the focus of scrutiny by the global aviation industry.
Preliminary findings of the investigation are expected to be made public after 30 days.
Indonesia is one of the world's fastest-growing aviation markets but its safety record has been patchy.
The Lion Air crash is the worst airline disaster in Indonesia since 1997, when 234 people died on a Garuda flight near Medan.
In December 2014, an AirAsia flight from Surabaya to Singapore plunged into the sea, killing all 162 on board.
Its transport safety panel investigated 137 serious aviation incidents from 2012 to 2017.
"There's still a lot we need to improve," Air Transportation Director General Pramintohadi Sukarno said at a press conference on Saturday, referring to safety rules.
AP/Reuters
Lion Air crash: Investigators recover 69 hours of flight data from black box
Updated about 2 hours agoSun 4 Nov 2018, 7:53amPhoto: Indonesian navy frogmen try to retrieve debris from the water during a search operation. (AP: Tatan Syuflana) Related Story: Doomed Lion Air plane probably found at bottom of Java Sea, says Indonesian militaryRelated Story: Crashed plane was brand new, but had 'technical issue' on previous flightRelated Story: Indonesian rescue diver dies while searching for victims of Lion Air jet crash
Key points:
- Fourteen of 189 victims identified from recovered remains
- Search for victims extended by three days
- Investigators still searching for second black box
The news came as Indonesian authorities on Sunday extended the search at sea for victims and debris.
National Transportation Safety Committee deputy chairman Haryo Satmiko told a news conference that 69 hours of flight data was downloaded from the recorder including its fatal flight.
The Boeing 737 MAX 8 jet crashed just minutes after take-off from Jakarta on October 29 in the country's worst airline disaster since 1997.
The flight data recorder was recovered by divers on Thursday in damaged condition and investigators said it required special handling to retrieve its information.
The second black box — a cockpit voice recorder — has not been recovered but searchers are focusing on a particular area based on a weak locator signal.
"From here we will analyse what happened to that flight," Nurcahyo Utomo, head of Indonesia's transportation safety committee, told reporters.
Analysis of the data and a recovered aircraft landing gear and engine will begin on Monday and information will be passed to police if needed, Mr Utomo said..
Search extended by three days
The National Search and Rescue Agency chief Muhammad Syaugi said on Sunday the search operation, now in its seventh day and involving hundreds of personnel and dozens of ships, would continue for another three days.Mr Syaugi paid tribute to a volunteer diver, Syahrul Anto, who died during the search effort on Friday.
The family of the 48-year-old refused an autopsy and he was buried on Saturday in Surabaya.
As of Sunday a total of 105 body bags, few containing intact remains, had been recovered and handed to police for forensic identification, yet only 14 victims had been identified.
"I'm sure the total will increase," Mr Syaugi said, adding remains were also now washing up on land.
The second black box is thought to be around 50 metres from the main search area, where the water is only 30 metres deep, but ocean currents and mud on the sea bed that is more than a metre deep have complicated search efforts.
Mr Syaugi said a considerable amount of aircraft "skin" was found on the sea floor but not a large intact part of its fuselage as he had indicated was possible on Saturday.
Patchy safety record
The pilot of flight JT610 had asked for, and received, permission to turn back to Jakarta, but what went wrong remains a mystery.
Flight tracking websites show the plane had erratic speed and altitude during its fatal 13-minute flight and a previous flight the day before from Bali to Jakarta.
Passengers on the Bali flight reported terrifying descents and in both cases the different cockpit crews requested to return to their departure airport shortly after take-off.
Lion Air has claimed a technical problem was fixed after the Bali fight.
The first crash of a Boeing 737 MAX is the focus of scrutiny by the global aviation industry.
Preliminary findings of the investigation are expected to be made public after 30 days.
Indonesia is one of the world's fastest-growing aviation markets but its safety record has been patchy.
The Lion Air crash is the worst airline disaster in Indonesia since 1997, when 234 people died on a Garuda flight near Medan.
In December 2014, an AirAsia flight from Surabaya to Singapore plunged into the sea, killing all 162 on board.
Its transport safety panel investigated 137 serious aviation incidents from 2012 to 2017.
"There's still a lot we need to improve," Air Transportation Director General Pramintohadi Sukarno said at a press conference on Saturday, referring to safety rules.
AP/Reuters
The horrifying part is that you may well be right - that someone in the organisation was worried that the crew might find themselves with a barely controllable aircraft for the second sector in a row.
Or that he was on board in the F/D jumpseat to observe any anomaly and help diagnose the fault. Been there, done it.
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Well, one of the lines of speculation is that the handling problems were exacerbated by the computer control of an automated trim system, as a result of erroneous data being fed into the computer. What you're proposing is to have that same computer (whcih is making the problem worse, based on bad data input), take over flying the airplane, and fix the problems that it is creating ... based on that same bad data that is causing the problem. See how that all gets kinda circular?
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Well, one of the lines of speculation is that the handling problems were exacerbated by the computer control of an automated trim system, as a result of erroneous data being fed into the computer. What you're proposing is to have that same computer (whcih is making the problem worse, based on bad data input), take over flying the airplane, and fix the problems that it is creating ... based on that same bad data that is causing the problem. See how that all gets kinda circular?
A system could easily alert that GPS alt changes mismatch pressure altitude change and offer to provide GPS altitude as a reference an on altimeter. Yes this does not match pressure altitude but is more accurate measuring vertical distance and rate of climb and descent. The much derided magenta line is generated by 'the computer' which also knows it in 4 dimensions how fast the aircraft is traveling along it and whether the aircraft is above or below it. 'The computer' in short could disregard the pressure instruments and just follow the magenta line in all 4 dimensions. It could even generate a new magenta line to the appropriate runway threshold and fly a recovery. Yes it may be hunting a little but it will know the approximate engine settings and then work from that reference. 'The computer' would then be doing the flying the aircraft by reference to the surface in the way that a pilot could do if that pilot stops trying to make sense of unreliable instruments and just looks out of the window disregards the instruments and flies by setting pitch and power. (A repeated mantra during the AF447 thread)
Another way of putting that is first thing to do is aviate - not try to solve system problems. 'The computer' could be designed to do that too. Perhaps it should be.
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Good report out of Indonesia above. Good flow of information.
Regarding the flightmech onboard, it would be interesting to know if he was specialized in a particular area and where he might have been seated-cockpit or cabin.
Regarding implementation of pitch and power by the crew, I don't think so. From FR24 data, the aircraft was pretty much accelerating/overpowered throughout.
If I was airborne and found out that I was now a test pilot, flying an aircraft that was not performing at all like it is supposed to, I would try to maintain the airspeed close to where I first found the problem, and then move cautiously toward the most forgiving portion of the flight envelope considering the current aircraft configuration.
Just my 2 cents from a steam gauge era viewpoint.
Regarding the flightmech onboard, it would be interesting to know if he was specialized in a particular area and where he might have been seated-cockpit or cabin.
Regarding implementation of pitch and power by the crew, I don't think so. From FR24 data, the aircraft was pretty much accelerating/overpowered throughout.
If I was airborne and found out that I was now a test pilot, flying an aircraft that was not performing at all like it is supposed to, I would try to maintain the airspeed close to where I first found the problem, and then move cautiously toward the most forgiving portion of the flight envelope considering the current aircraft configuration.
Just my 2 cents from a steam gauge era viewpoint.
Last edited by Machinbird; 4th Nov 2018 at 17:05. Reason: punctuation and spelling
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Good post Capn Bloggs. Trouble is us pilots spent so many years dumbing down our profession that everyone thinks they can do it. This includes the owners & management hence recruit anyone especially those with money. The schools being commercial operations are very loath to fail those candidates without flying ability as they would loose students. Unfortunately not every one has the aptitude to be a pilot, in the true sense of the word even those that think they do. Quote “Fly the d** Arroplane & don’t over stress it. Get your cockpit management in place (CRM) & get the other guy to diagnose. If you want to confirm what he thinks hand him control & cross check his thoughts. It will be taking 80 to 90 % of your cognitive ability to control an “erroneont” aeroplane.
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SLFinAZ;
From what I read (in Indonesian). The previous flight (DPS to CKG) requested to return. But killed the systems and hand flew it to Jakarta. They did not return to DPS. I assume they dealt with the situation, got control of the aircraft manually, and decided to continue. But that is guesswork.
From what I read (in Indonesian). The previous flight (DPS to CKG) requested to return. But killed the systems and hand flew it to Jakarta. They did not return to DPS. I assume they dealt with the situation, got control of the aircraft manually, and decided to continue. But that is guesswork.
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As previously posted, I find it hard to believe that a type that has been in service with the operator for nearly a year and a half, flying on a route that gets 6 daily rotations with the type, needed to carry a flying spanner just to sign off the aircraft at the outstation.