Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta
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Strongly disagree. Let's put this claim to bed. The only global means for real time data transfer (streaming) is via satellite, and all aircraft satellite antennae are directional (vertically oriented) and placed on a surface that is upward facing during normal flight. An accident aircraft could possibly be gyrating through any axes before impact and thus unable to reliably stream data. The last moments of an accident flight tend to be the most critical to preserve. With current technologies, only a local storage device onboard can reliably store telemetry data when not in stable flight.
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Strongly disagree. Let's put this claim to bed. The only global means for real time data transfer (streaming) is via satellite, and all aircraft satellite antennae are directional (vertically oriented) and placed on a surface that is upward facing during normal flight. An accident aircraft could possibly be gyrating through any axes before impact and thus unable to reliably stream data. The last moments of an accident flight tend to be the most critical to preserve. With current technologies, only a local storage device onboard can reliably store telemetry data when not in stable flight.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Strongly disagree. Let's put this claim to bed. The only global means for real time data transfer (streaming) is via satellite, and all aircraft satellite antennae are directional (vertically oriented) and placed on a surface that is upward facing during normal flight. An accident aircraft could possibly be gyrating through any axes before impact and thus unable to reliably stream data. The last moments of an accident flight tend to be the most critical to preserve. With current technologies, only a local storage device onboard can reliably store telemetry data when not in stable flight.
Almost like the truth is to be avoided....
IanW. #1432. Spot on.
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Boeing shares fell 4.3 percent in trading Tuesday after the company canceled conference call with airlines to discuss systems on the 737 MAX model which crashed in Indonesia in October.
A 737 MAX operated by Lion Air crashed on Oct. 29, killing all 189 people on board. It was the first major accident involving the Boeing's latest version of its popular narrow-body plane. Since the crash, investigators have been looking at whether or not the pilots were fully aware of changes in the software of the 737 MAX for a particular part of the plane and how it reacts in extreme situations.
Instead of a conference call, the aerospace giant will continue contact with individual airlines on a regular basis, CNBC has learned. Boeing has steadily spoken with different operators of the 737 MAX airplane over the last two weeks.
But the reaction among shareholders in the stock Tuesday furthers the perception that Boeing has not been forthright with its customers. Airlines, as well as members of the pilot's union, told CNBC that Boeing had not provided detailed updates about changes to the 737 MAX's software system.
However, CEO Dennis Muilenburg adamantly denied in an email to employees on Monday that Boeing has withheld information.
"Continued media speculation has introduced false assumptions. It's important you know the facts to the extent we can share them at this stage of the investigation," Muilenburg wrote in the email.
"I have supreme confidence in all of you and our products, including the 737 Max, but when it comes to safety, our standards of excellence can never be too high," Muilenburg added.
Indonesia investigators are expected to release a preliminary report regarding the Lion Air crash on Nov. 28 or 29.
A 737 MAX operated by Lion Air crashed on Oct. 29, killing all 189 people on board. It was the first major accident involving the Boeing's latest version of its popular narrow-body plane. Since the crash, investigators have been looking at whether or not the pilots were fully aware of changes in the software of the 737 MAX for a particular part of the plane and how it reacts in extreme situations.
Instead of a conference call, the aerospace giant will continue contact with individual airlines on a regular basis, CNBC has learned. Boeing has steadily spoken with different operators of the 737 MAX airplane over the last two weeks.
But the reaction among shareholders in the stock Tuesday furthers the perception that Boeing has not been forthright with its customers. Airlines, as well as members of the pilot's union, told CNBC that Boeing had not provided detailed updates about changes to the 737 MAX's software system.
However, CEO Dennis Muilenburg adamantly denied in an email to employees on Monday that Boeing has withheld information.
"Continued media speculation has introduced false assumptions. It's important you know the facts to the extent we can share them at this stage of the investigation," Muilenburg wrote in the email.
"I have supreme confidence in all of you and our products, including the 737 Max, but when it comes to safety, our standards of excellence can never be too high," Muilenburg added.
Indonesia investigators are expected to release a preliminary report regarding the Lion Air crash on Nov. 28 or 29.
Following from FCOM
B737 NG FCOM
STS operates most frequently during takeoffs, climb and go-arounds. Conditions for speed trim operation are listed below:
• Airspeed between 100 KIAS and
Mach 0.5
• 10 seconds after takeoff
• 5 seconds following release of
trim switches
• Autopilot not engaged
• Sensing of trim requirement
B737 -300 (non-EFIS) FCOM
Flaps not up
Air speed 100-300 KIAS
N1 above 60%
(Rest of the conditions same as NG above)
MAX unknown. (some one in this forum can help)
Only Tristar_Drvr has mentioned he is flying the MAX in this forum. So he should know.
B737 NG FCOM
STS operates most frequently during takeoffs, climb and go-arounds. Conditions for speed trim operation are listed below:
• Airspeed between 100 KIAS and
Mach 0.5
• 10 seconds after takeoff
• 5 seconds following release of
trim switches
• Autopilot not engaged
• Sensing of trim requirement
B737 -300 (non-EFIS) FCOM
Flaps not up
Air speed 100-300 KIAS
N1 above 60%
(Rest of the conditions same as NG above)
MAX unknown. (some one in this forum can help)
Only Tristar_Drvr has mentioned he is flying the MAX in this forum. So he should know.
STS operates most frequently during takeoff, climb and go-around. Conditions for
speed trim operation are listed below:
• STS Mach gain is fully enabled between 100 KIAS and Mach 0.60 with a fadeout to zero by Mach 0.68
• 10 seconds after takeoff
• 5 seconds following release of trim switches
• Autopilot not engaged
• Sensing of trim requirement
It's about the two questions: Who pays? and Who benefits?
I'd suggest that the answers to those two questions differ significantly depending on whether we're talking about an airline/OEM arrangement for sending EHM data which has pretty immediate benefits, or an operator sending a ton of flight parameters (to whom?) against the statistically highly unlikely probability of a hull loss rendering the recorders inaccessible.
Don't sell those L3 shares just yet ...
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From the MAX FCOM, Rev 5, Feb 2018 ....
STS operates most frequently during takeoff, climb and go-around. Conditions for
speed trim operation are listed below:
• STS Mach gain is fully enabled between 100 KIAS and Mach 0.60 with a fadeout to zero by Mach 0.68
• 10 seconds after takeoff
• 5 seconds following release of trim switches
• Autopilot not engaged
• Sensing of trim requirement
STS operates most frequently during takeoff, climb and go-around. Conditions for
speed trim operation are listed below:
• STS Mach gain is fully enabled between 100 KIAS and Mach 0.60 with a fadeout to zero by Mach 0.68
• 10 seconds after takeoff
• 5 seconds following release of trim switches
• Autopilot not engaged
• Sensing of trim requirement
One word. Delegated certification. (OK 2 words)
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It's not about the technical feasibility.
It's about the two questions: Who pays? and Who benefits?
I'd suggest that the answers to those two questions differ significantly depending on whether we're talking about an airline/OEM arrangement for sending EHM data which has pretty immediate benefits, or an operator sending a ton of flight parameters (to whom?) against the statistically highly unlikely probability of a hull loss rendering the recorders inaccessible.
Don't sell those L3 shares just yet ...
It's about the two questions: Who pays? and Who benefits?
I'd suggest that the answers to those two questions differ significantly depending on whether we're talking about an airline/OEM arrangement for sending EHM data which has pretty immediate benefits, or an operator sending a ton of flight parameters (to whom?) against the statistically highly unlikely probability of a hull loss rendering the recorders inaccessible.
Don't sell those L3 shares just yet ...
A benefit is the huge amount of analytics that can be carried out while the aircraft is in flight.
(It is said that the most eager supporter of Alexander Graham Bell's novel telephone saw a case for each town having one.)
Boeing was meant to have a conference call today to Max operators to discuss the issue, but it has been cancelled.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...mpression=true
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...mpression=true
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Update on conf call - FWIW
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ure-employees/
Uhhh isn't that what Denni just did ???
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ure-employees/
Boeing rescheduling 737 MAX conference call with airlines, while execs try to reassure employees
Originally published November 20, 2018 at 1:18 pmBoeing has rescheduled a planned Tuesday conference call with airlines to answer questions about the safety of the 737 MAX. And in an internal message to employees, CEO Muilenburg denied that a procedure to deal with the malfunction of a new flight control system is not covered in the 737 pilot manual.
The Boeing spokesman said it proved difficult to find a time that worked for all participants around the world and that the rescheduled teleconference call may not happen until after the Thanksgiving break.Separately, Boeing is offering reassurance internally to employees.
However, though the manual omits mention of MCAS, it does describe exactly how a pilot should deal with uncommanded and unwanted movements of the horizontal tail, whatever the cause may be. An emergency checklist describes a short procedure needed to cut off automated signals to the tail and stop the nose-down movements.So in Muilenburg’s message, he specifically denied reports in some media outlets that the procedure pilots need to deal with such uncommanded movements was not in the 737 pilot manual and that pilots were not trained on how to handle it.“That’s simply untrue,” Muilenburg said.His message ended by saying that Boeing will not debate details in the media so as not to “violate the integrity of the investigation.”
Last edited by CONSO; 21st Nov 2018 at 02:06.
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As such it presumably had a relatively low perceived design criticality, since it isn't "essential" to most stall recoveries, and maybe not truly for any. That may have led to a relatively simple - perhaps too simple - design concept in terms of sensor architecture and dependencies (all armed with 20/20 hindsight, of course)
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Look, there's a lot we don't know. Here's what I have good probabilities for:
1. The CVR will be recovered in due time. Yes, there's a lot of noise at the moment, but it'll happen. They may even "call off the search", but they'll get it.
2. They flew into an undocumented state. Odds are it was the same undocumented state as the previous flight or three. And odds are that this flight crew, for whatever reason, was less well equipped to deal with it. A potentially lethal situation just needs to keep reappearing before someone takes up the offer. Fate is the hunter.
so, say all you want about corporate safety culture and cultural norms for cockpit behavior. I'm sure something of it played a role. Probably mx too. But the aircraft should never have put the crew in a position for this to matter, and especially not due to some feature withheld from the manuals. That's the point Boeing is going to have to eat.
1. The CVR will be recovered in due time. Yes, there's a lot of noise at the moment, but it'll happen. They may even "call off the search", but they'll get it.
2. They flew into an undocumented state. Odds are it was the same undocumented state as the previous flight or three. And odds are that this flight crew, for whatever reason, was less well equipped to deal with it. A potentially lethal situation just needs to keep reappearing before someone takes up the offer. Fate is the hunter.
so, say all you want about corporate safety culture and cultural norms for cockpit behavior. I'm sure something of it played a role. Probably mx too. But the aircraft should never have put the crew in a position for this to matter, and especially not due to some feature withheld from the manuals. That's the point Boeing is going to have to eat.
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There's a well written CNN article that describes the issues surrounding this event and the lack of information around MCAS.
In particular one learns that Lion Air has ordered $21 Billion of Max 8 737 Boeing jetliners in 2011, and another 6 Billion worth of Max 9 and Max 10 this year.
In particular one learns that Lion Air has ordered $21 Billion of Max 8 737 Boeing jetliners in 2011, and another 6 Billion worth of Max 9 and Max 10 this year.
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Look, there's a lot we don't know. Here's what I have good probabilities for:
1. The CVR will be recovered in due time. Yes, there's a lot of noise at the moment, but it'll happen. They may even "call off the search", but they'll get it.
2. They flew into an undocumented state. Odds are it was the same undocumented state as the previous flight or three. And odds are that this flight crew, for whatever reason, was less well equipped to deal with it. A potentially lethal situation just needs to keep reappearing before someone takes up the offer. Fate is the hunter.
so, say all you want about corporate safety culture and cultural norms for cockpit behavior. I'm sure something of it played a role. Probably mx too. But the aircraft should never have put the crew in a position for this to matter, and especially not due to some feature withheld from the manuals. That's the point Boeing is going to have to eat.
1. The CVR will be recovered in due time. Yes, there's a lot of noise at the moment, but it'll happen. They may even "call off the search", but they'll get it.
2. They flew into an undocumented state. Odds are it was the same undocumented state as the previous flight or three. And odds are that this flight crew, for whatever reason, was less well equipped to deal with it. A potentially lethal situation just needs to keep reappearing before someone takes up the offer. Fate is the hunter.
so, say all you want about corporate safety culture and cultural norms for cockpit behavior. I'm sure something of it played a role. Probably mx too. But the aircraft should never have put the crew in a position for this to matter, and especially not due to some feature withheld from the manuals. That's the point Boeing is going to have to eat.
