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Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

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Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

Old 3rd Nov 2018, 17:10
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A Squared View Post
That is my understanding as well, although I think it's more accurate to say that Mode S Enhanced Surveillance is the means by which the IAS is provided to ATC.
Yes, a suitably equipped Mode S secondary radar can interrogate the aircraft's transponder for a number of parameters, including IAS.

TAS and heading, too, among others.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 17:16
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Just getting back to the post concerning flying with Pitot Covers still attached. Is there a 'Jobsworth Culture' that prevents the tug operator from letting the flight crew know that the Covers are still attached..? These things would be dangling right in front of the Tug Driver's face.. I suppose there is too much of a seniority difference, for any useful safety conversation.
.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 17:50
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scifi View Post
Just getting back to the post concerning flying with Pitot Covers still attached. Is there a 'Jobsworth Culture' that prevents the tug operator from letting the flight crew know that the Covers are still attached..? These things would be dangling right in front of the Tug Driver's face.. I suppose there is too much of a seniority difference, for any useful safety conversation.
.
As cynical as I am, I am reluctant to believe that a tug operator in Brisbane would notice the pitot covers and choose not to say anything. People can fail to notice some pretty astonishing things. The "Gorilla in the Basketball game" video, for instance. I'm inclined to believe that the tug operator didn't notice them, despite them being right in front of his face. Perhaps I'm just being naive.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 17:58
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The Maintenance Release shows the time 12:40 UTC. The aircraft landed at 15:55 UTC (22:55 local time). Maybe the airworthy release was signed at 00:40 local time on 29th, but still only 1h45min to fix two malfunctions.
The Maintenance release was signed in DPS before that flight. It is not the maintenance release for the next flight from CGK. That is on the next tech log page.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 18:48
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Originally Posted by A Squared View Post
As cynical as I am, I am reluctant to believe that a tug operator in Brisbane would notice the pitot covers and choose not to say anything. People can fail to notice some pretty astonishing things. The "Gorilla in the Basketball game" video, for instance. I'm inclined to believe that the tug operator didn't notice them, despite them being right in front of his face. Perhaps I'm just being naive.
From the Preliminary Report:

The pitot probe covers were fitted on the aircraftís three pitot probes by one of the engineering support personnel, as it was his understanding this was normal practice. He later reported that he advised the operatorís maintenance engineer that pitot probe covers were fitted during a brief exchange discussing turnaround tasks, but that the maintenance engineer did not directly respond. The maintenance engineer later reported that he did not recall hearing the advice, and he did not make an entry in the aircraftís technical log to record that the covers had been fitted.

The presence of the pitot covers was not detected by the operatorís maintenance engineer or captain during separate external aircraft inspections. The operatorís maintenance engineer boarded the aircraft during turnaround, and the engineering support personnel left the bay to attend to other aircraft. The pitot covers were not detected by ground handlers during pushback.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 19:08
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The point being, make it part of his/her job. It can't be bad to have a third check as SOP.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 19:16
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
From the Preliminary Report:
The pitot covers were not detected by ground handlers during pushback.
Well, yes, I think that regardless of what the tug driver did or didn't do, I think we all would all expect that he wouldn't confess that he saw them and didn't say anything.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 19:25
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Why should he/she, if it wasn't part of his job description?
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 19:37
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Originally Posted by Organfreak View Post
Why should he/she, if it wasn't part of his job description?
I sincerely hope that, with an attitude like that, you don't work anywhere near aircraft.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 19:43
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
I sincerely hope that, with an attitude like that, you don't work anywhere near aircraft.
What I meant to say, Dave, is that without training, there's no reason for the person to know to look!
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 19:48
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Those streamers are most likely too short to be in pushback-operators FOV.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 20:10
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How relevant is the pitotcover anyway. If a missed pitotcover was the cause of UAS on the previous leg, then it sure would be known by now. I doubt that a missed pitotcover was the cause of their problems.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 20:17
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Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post


Donít most ATC units display data sent from the aircraft, not radar calculated ground speed? Genuine question.
Eurocat will do that if the data is available. The only systems in the region that I am aware of are Singapore and Ujung Pandang.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 20:40
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Originally Posted by Slow and curious View Post
How relevant is the pitotcover anyway. If a missed pitotcover was the cause of UAS on the previous leg, then it sure would be known by now. I doubt that a missed pitotcover was the cause of their problems.
Probably not very. The chances are pretty slim that a pitot cover is involved in the accident at hand.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 20:45
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As David said anyone who actually worked around airliners would know this stuff.
I for one would challenge this assumption

Show me the data that confirms this
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 20:58
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Another one to add to the death toll - a diver has died

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ectid=12154241
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 20:59
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Indonesian rescue diver dies while searching for Lion Air jet crash

An Indonesian rescue diver has died in the search for a passenger jet that crashed early this week near Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board, search and rescue agency Basarnas said on Saturday.
A sad reminder of the risks that rescue teams and first responders undertake. Condolences to his family and friends.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 21:01
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Salute!

Gotta go with "SLOW" and "A^2. No pitot/static covers left on. The problem was there even before the flight before.

Pitot/static problem? Yep.
Trim system function with bad air data? Yep, or a strong maybe..
Mechanical failure leading to an extreme dive to impact? Don't know
++++++++++++++++++++++++
News media now claims the main fuselage has been detected, and the "pinger" or tone of one recording device has also been detected.

Gums sends.......
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 22:46
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A very interesting presentation from American Airlines back in the 90's called Children of Magenta -(you can search for this on google) described the over dependency on computers when things went wrong very quickly and not reacting by instinct due to lack of flying skills or part thereof. Also, possibly a loss of CRM skills since when under stress, you tend to revert to earlier behaviors without thinking. Could both flightcrew (since they were of different nationalities) loose precious time diagnosing the issue and flying the aircraft out of the situation(assuming the plane was flyable until the crash).
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 00:32
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Originally Posted by judebrad View Post
A very interesting presentation from American Airlines back in the 90's called Children of Magenta -(you can search for this on google) described the over dependency on computers when things went wrong very quickly and not reacting by instinct due to lack of flying skills or part thereof.
It's been referenced many times on PPRuNe over the years, but for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:


I may be wrong, but I believe the late Captain Vanderburgh was the first to coin that phrase.
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