Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

Old 21st Dec 2018, 20:00
  #2061 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 330
Lion Air 610 update - amazing

Amazing that the following has not been discussed here and in other pages. This in spite of the reference to Reuters and a number of key players and officials and the fundamental importance to the aerospace of the issues included.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...earch-11021966

Note: i have made some minir textual changes to improve readability.

December 11, 2018

Bureaucratic wrangling and funding problems have hampered the search for the CVR of the crashed Lion Air jet, prompting investigators to turn to the airline to foot the bill in a rare test of global norms on the probe's independence.

JAKARTA: Bureaucratic wrangling and funding problems have hampered the search for the CVR of the crashed Lion Air jet, prompting investigators to turn to the airline to foot the bill in a rare test of global norms on the probe's independence. Weeks of delays in the search for the CVR may complicate the task of explaining how 189 people died when the Lion Air 737 MAX crashed into the Java Sea on Oct. 29.

Indonesian investigators told Reuters budgetary constraints and the need for approvals had limited efforts to raise the main wreckage and find the CVR, thought to hold vital clues. "We don't have further funds to rent a ship," a source at Indonesia's KNKT said, in reference to specialised equipment needed for the search. "There is no emergency fund for us, because there is no legal basis," the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "We have already asked the coordinating minister for the economy, but there is no regulation and it would need to be discussed by parliament," the source added.

The source said Lion Air's insurers had been approached to pay the bill. A source at Lion Air said its insurers had been reluctant to pay for the search and so the airline had stepped in.

The clock is ticking in the hunt for acoustic pings coming from the L3 Technologies Inc CVR fitted to the jet. It has a 90-day beacon, acc to an online brochure from the manufacturer. Safety experts say it is unusual for one of the parties to help fund an investigation. Under UN rules, such probes must be conducted independently to maintain trust in any recommendations made to prevent future accidents. There are also broader concerns about the resources available for such investigations worldwide, coupled with the threat of agencies being dragged into separate legal disputes.

A rare exception was the costly search for black boxes of an Air France jet in the Atlantic in 2009, parts of which were funded by the airline and Airbus after a failed 2-yr effort. The Lion Air jet crashed in relatively shallow water of 30-35 m but only the FDR has been found and the CVR lies among oil pipelines requiring an expensive dynamic-positioning vessel (which does not require anchors).

A Lion Air spokesman said a chartering contract had been signed and a specialised ship would arrive once all international regulatory approvals were obtained. Even though the airline is helping to fund the search, officials from the KNKT will oversee all operations on board.

The CVR could help answer questions over whether the crew responded correctly to potentially faulty sensor data, and any role that a newly modified anti-stall system on the 737 MAX may have played. Lion Air Group co-founder Rusdi Kirana is furious over what he sees as attempts by Boeing to deflect attention from recent design changes, and blame Lion Air for the crash, while the airline faces scrutiny over its maintenance record and pilots' actions. Lion Air CEO Edward Sirait last week said the airline, which has 190 Boeing jets worth US$22 billion at list prices waiting to be delivered, was considering cancelling orders, although no decision had yet been made.

The FDR was recovered 3 days after the crash.

The need for an adequate support ship has been highlighted ever since tests on Nov 12, 2018 suggested the CVR's locator beacon was broken, KNKT head Soerjanto Tjahjono told Reuters. The search requires a heavy-duty supply vessel with a large enough deck and crane capacity to help recover the main fuselage wreckage as well as support a remotely operated underwater vehicle, deputy chief Haryo Satmiko said. He estimated the search would cost about 25 billion rupiah (US$1.73 million) every 10 days and cited the need to obtain "administrative progress" on funding as the main obstacle over the last month.

The Lion Air spokesman referred questions on the funding to insurer Asuransi Tugu Pratama Indonesia, a subsidiary of government-controlled oil company Pertamina.

The insurer was not immediately available for comment.

Finance Minister Sri Mulyani Indrawati said she was not aware of a lack of funding for the CVR search operation.

(US$1 = 14,465.0000 rupiah)

(Reporting by Cindy Silviana; additional reporting by Maikel Jefriando; writing by Jamie Freed; Editing by Tim Hepher and Darren Schuettler)
A0283 is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 15:40
  #2062 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 4,819
Maintenance Lapse Identified as Initial Problem Leading to Lion Air Crash - WSJ

A Wall Street Journal article with a report of faulty 'airspeed sensor' calibration.

Maintenance Lapse Identified as Initial Problem Leading to Lion Air Crash

Investigators zero in on replacement of airspeed sensor in probe of Indonesian airliner’s fatal plunge

By Andy Pasztor in Los Angeles andBen Otto in Jakarta, Indonesia
Dec. 25, 2018 7:00 a.m. ET

Crash investigators have concluded preliminarily that improper calibration of an airspeed sensor during maintenance touched off the sequence of events that led to October’s fatal Lion Air jetliner crash in Indonesia, according to people familiar with the details. The conclusion is subject to further analysis, these people said, but it is the firmest indication so far that a suspected maintenance lapse was the initial misstep that ended with the months-old Boeing Co. 737 MAX aircraft plunging into the Java Sea, killing all...


https://www.wsj.com/articles/maintenance-lapse-identified-as-initial-problem-leading-to-lion-air-crash-11545739204
Airbubba is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 15:52
  #2063 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 931
I thought it was an AoA vane (sensor), not pitot. Not that it matters much - bad data confuses "hidden" trim automation > results in strange aircraft behavior in supposedly manual flight > LOCA
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 16:14
  #2064 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dundee
Posts: 47
Really?

What airspeed "sensor" requires "calibration" post fit?

Requires testing, yes.
weemonkey is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 16:14
  #2065 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Area 51
Posts: 25
This was already posted in Tech Log a few hours ago.
FlyXLsa is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 17:01
  #2066 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,267
Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
I thought it was an AoA vane (sensor), not pitot. Not that it matters much - bad data confuses "hidden" trim automation > results in strange aircraft behavior in supposedly manual flight > LOCA
Find a WSJ reporter who understands what an AoA vane is.
I think you will find they meant that the AoA vane was incorrectly calibrated. That would certainly fit with the symptoms of the crash flight.
Ian W is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 17:11
  #2067 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Bali H'ai
Posts: 409
Boeing B*ll Sh*t

They failed to advise the pilot community of the instability of the 737 Max 8

Murder she said!
Sultan Ismail is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 17:13
  #2068 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Not sure about the 737MAX but on the 737NG it is not mandatory to carry out a test of the newly installed sensor.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 00:42
  #2069 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,186
Lion Air CVR Search Called Off

Not 2018 accident investigation:



Lion Air ends search for CVR from 737 MAX crash | Safety content from ATWOnline
aterpster is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 01:59
  #2070 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 370
From the ATW article

Although government agencies typically fund search operations after a crash, the Indonesian Ministry of Transportation said in December it would only fund the investigation process while Lion Air would cover the cost of the CVR search.
In what world does an airline call off the search for critical data relating to one of its own accidents?

Doesn't this development also call into question the integrity and diligence of the Indonesian MOT?
Zeffy is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 02:53
  #2071 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,266
The search for the CVR isn't ending, but Lion Air will no longer be leading (or presumably paying for) the search.
tdracer is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 05:14
  #2072 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Earth
Posts: 19
I'd think Boeing would really want to find it...
flensr is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 14:00
  #2073 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,044
Those that want the CVR need to pay for the search

The Governments involved should define the need (Airworthiness)

Curiosity is not always afforable
lomapaseo is online now  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 15:14
  #2074 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 536
Originally Posted by Zeffy View Post
In what world does an airline call off the search for critical data relating to one of its own accidents?

Doesn't this development also call into question the integrity and diligence of the Indonesian MOT?
In Indonesia - the Govt doesn't have much money and so they can only pay so much - right now they're probably prioritizing the Krakatoa tsunami victims who are at least alive - in Indonesia there's always another disaster about to happen that requires funds...................
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2019, 00:50
  #2075 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,186
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
In Indonesia - the Govt doesn't have much money and so they can only pay so much - right now they're probably prioritizing the Krakatoa tsunami victims who are at least alive - in Indonesia there's always another disaster about to happen that requires funds...................
Point well taken. Boeing is a VERY important business in the United States. The U.S. government should pony up to continue the search for the CVR, Surely, the executive branch has a "flush fund" for such events (government shutdown notwithstanding), I suspect the chair of the NTSB is quite unhappy, for he is honest and an absolute expert.
aterpster is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 12:15
  #2076 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Area 51
Posts: 25
Search for the CVR resumed.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-in...-idUKKCN1P2066

NTSC Continues Lion Air JT-610 CVR Search
http://mediaindonesia.com/read/detail/209161-knkt-lanjutkan-pencarian-cvr-lion-air-jt-610
(Google Chrome Translation)
"A KNKT source, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters the team will have seven days using the ship KRI Spica to find the CVR..."

The National Transportation Safety Committee (NTSC) collaborates with the Navy's Hydrographic and Oceanographic Center (Pushidrosal) to return to search for cockpit voice recorders Lion Air JT-610 PK-LQP (CVR) which crashed in Tanjung Karawang waters some time ago.

Pushidrosal deployed KRI Spica-934 which departed from the Jakarta International Container Terminal (JICT) Pier 2, Tanjung Priok Port, Tuesday (1/8).

The departure of the Hydro-Oceanographic survey vessel under the guidance of the Pushidrosal was released by the Head of Regional Police Laksda TNI Harjo Susmoro and the Chair of the NTSC Soerjanto Tjahjono and the main officials of the two institutions.

Kapushidrosal in his written statement, said, the departure of KRI Spica-934 which has underwater equipment with advanced technology is to continue to look for the existence of CVR which until now has not been found with a complete tool such as Multibeam Echosounder (MBES), Sub Bottom Profiling (SBP) , Magnetometer, Side Scan Sonar, ADCP, and HIPAP equipment that can detect signals from the black box of Lion JT-610.

"In addition to the equipment, KRI Spica-934 also brought 55 crew members, 9 NTSC personnel, 18 Navy divers, and 6 Scientists," he said.

Meanwhile, the Chair of the NTSC Soerjanto Tjahjono said that the NTSC requested Pushidrosal's assistance with the latest equipment to look for the CVR's existence.

With all the power available, KRI Spica, which is commanded by Marine Lt. Col. (P) Hengky Iriawan, has time to look for the CVR Lion Air flight number JT-610 for 15 days, given the signal that CVR emits for 90 days.

At present the remaining remaining time is around 15 days left, since the Lion Air plane crashed in Karawang waters on October 29, 2018.

"We will focus on searching 5 x 5 meters wide, around the point where CVR is estimated. With all our efforts and prayers, we hope that the CVR can be found following the discovery of a flight data recorder (FDR) some time ago to complete the investigation into the cause. "The fall of Lion Air is certain," said Kapushidrosal. (OL-1)

Last edited by FlyXLsa; 8th Jan 2019 at 15:30. Reason: Added new article
FlyXLsa is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 03:21
  #2077 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 4,819
Lion Air JT610 Cockpit Voice Recorder Recovered

Reports in Indonesian media that the CVR has been found.



https://kumparan.com/@kumparannews/t...36351341563155
Airbubba is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 03:50
  #2078 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 4,819
An update in English:

Lion Air JT-610’s missing cockpit voice recorder found in waters near crash site

By Coconuts Jakarta Jan. 14, 2019

Indonesian authorities this morning found the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), a crucial missing piece in the investigation of Lion Air flight JT-610, which crashed into the Java Sea in October.

The CVR was found in waters off the coast of Karawang, West Java, near the plane’s crash site.

“The CVR of Lion Air JT-610 was found at 09:10 Jakarta time [0210Z - Airbubba], 8 meters below the seafloor, or 30 meters deep,” said Indonesian Navy Spokesman Colonel Liutenant Agung Nugroho this morning,
as quoted by Detik. The CVR is now being transported by boat to an Indonesian Navy base in Pondok Dayung, North Jakarta.

Previously, search parties recovered the plane’s flight data recorder (FDR), which makes up one half of the “black box” — the other being the CVR — both of which may prove crucial in determining the cause of the crash.

The preliminary crash report from Indonesia’s transport safety agency suggested that pilots struggled to control the plane’s anti-stalling system immediately before the crash.
Investigators also found that the Lion Air jet should have been grounded over a recurrent technical problem before its final journey, but have not settled on an official cause for the accident.

A lawsuit filed in Chicago blames Boeing for the deadly crash,
claiming the manufacturer’s airplane was “unreasonably dangerous.”

The Boeing 737 Max jet — one of the world’s newest and most advanced commercial planes — plunged into the Java Sea on October 29 shortly after taking off from capital Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang city, killing all 189 on board. A final crash report is likely to be filed this year.

With additional reporting by AFP
Airbubba is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 04:16
  #2079 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: halifax
Age: 53
Posts: 16
Time and an timely manner

I am hoping the long salt water immersion didn't ruin the recording(s) and we get to see the transcripts in a timely manner.
Certainly think this will put the spotlight on the failing(s) in this devastating and sad accident.
Back door is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 04:33
  #2080 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,266
Originally Posted by Back door View Post
I am hoping the long salt water immersion didn't ruin the recording(s) and we get to see the transcripts in a timely manner.
Certainly think this will put the spotlight on the failing(s) in this devastating and sad accident.
I'm pretty confident that the recorder will be just fine. If there is a silver lining to an accident with a brand new aircraft, it's that it has brand new recorders - and the new solid state recorders are vastly better than the older models.
A month or two in ~150 ft. deep salt water is a cake walk compared to what the latest generation of recorders are designed for.
tdracer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.