Asiana ICN-ORD pax fatality w/ no divert, inflicting 10 hrs trauma economy section

[parabellum]

A lot of professional pilots no longer read this forum due to the drivel frequently expressed by emotive people who may be very competent in the field they work in but do not understand a lot of the basics of running an airline.

or may be, if they do their homework properly and don't spend too much time on FlightSim, they will when they leave school.

OLDBALBOY - think you may have been fortunate with your experience of DoB, I have brought several pax from the Middle East into LHR, hoping to get to a London specialist but left it too late, police and an MD every time, delay usually less than ten minutes. Body bags on board? Obviously an airlines choice, two of the majors I flew for did.

My experience only but bodies placed in a toilet, in a sitting position, on the floor, can be removed and taken off in a wheel chair, (the type designed for use within the aircraft), when all other pax are off.

[golfyankeesierra]

I think there is a big difference between a long haul and a continental (US/EUR) flight, where you can be on the ground before you even had the time to consult a ground based service.
Had a person pass away on a long haul, initiated diversion but in the time before TOD already consulted 2 doctors on board and one on the ground. We continued to destination where it took more then half an hour before the aircraft was cleared and the first passengers were allowed to deplane, while the corpse remained on board. It looked like a crime scene out of a movie, including loads of police and a fully zipped up coroner.
What really is an issue that it made quite an impact on the crew and I wonder whether I would really have wanted to continue to our destination if it had been an enroute diversion.
(we also have a body bag btw)

[RoyHudd]

A diversion would have been idiocy, for many of the reasons given above. The thinking in favour of a diversion is largely nonsensical, (emotional, but impractical in this case) although doubtless the pilots would have considered all options before making their decision.

[Bull at a Gate]

BA flight LHR to SIN on a 747. Passenger died as we were taking off. He was carried to seat 1A and his grieving widow was moved to 1K. I was in 3A and Mrs Bull was in 4A having been upgraded from club class. We then flew for 12 hours with the cabin being comfortably warm. While I could understand the decision to continue to our destination, it was not a pleasant introduction to travel at the front of the plane. To their credit BA offered Mrs Bull and me 2 free return first class flights to anywhere we wanted to go, which was jolly nice of them as we hadn’t even paid for first class seats in the first place.

[Sound Engineer]

It doesn't necessarily require a medical professional to determine death.

It's been a while since I was crew, but as I recall, if you were performing CPR on an adult and there had been no response for 30 minutes (physically noticeable, or detected by the defibrillator) then you could make the decision to stop as death was evident.

If it was a child it was a bit different as you'd carry on CPR regardless (no matter what a travelling medical professional said) until handing over to ground medical services)

[Pilot DAR]

If you, trained in CPR, have determined that beginning CPR is appropriate, you have not been able to detect signs of life in the patient (otherwise, you would not have started CPR). CPR training will have taught you how long to continue CPR in the absence of signs of life. A person trained in CPR, who determines that CPR should not be continued has not made a declaration of death, that's a different qualification, but it would seem that the patient, now victim, would then be in that place between no signs of life for too long, and legal death. As said, children are different, don't give up until the people at hospital take over from you.

[Three Lima Charlie]

I recall an old Braniff B-747 Captain that died enroute Honolulu to DFW while somewhere over LAX. They did not divert, but continued on to destination so as not to cause many problems for the passengers, crew and the airline. Body was held in the cockpit and his wife, who was an F/A on the flight, was not told until they landed.

[rigpiggy]

Did the F/O log it as PIC. I assisted a gentleman a while back. None of the F/A's would do CPR, Done to the beat of the BeeGees "staying Alive. He made it to the hospital, but not through the night

[costalpilot]

so, Captain X lands with a formerly living passenger on board in Memphis way back in the day. The airport medics arrive but will not off load the load because they say they need the county coroner or someone from his office to show up and declare the dead weight offcially dead. Now this was before the airlines discovered the need to change planes (for the crews) at every hub stop, so Captain X and his crew 's next leg was in the aircraft that now had to wait till the local coroner showed up. At that point Captain X is reported to have made this argument:
you say no one is competent in this city to declare this person dead other than the coroner? Yes, he is told.

WEll then, since YOU dont know if this person is dead or alive, I suggest you get it to the nearest hospital ASAP.

thats was the story as it was told.

[Deepinsider]

Originally Posted by oldbalboy

Simple question would YOU want a loved one of yours who had passed away put into a public toilet ??? think the answer is NO .

So what is it that you recommend then?

We are in a confined space airliner in the middle of nowhere,
one might say. Landing somewhere in Eastern China or
Russia is pretty well the middle of nowhere, especially if the
passenger came from ORD, or the US.(we don't know yet)
and just what conditions of storage and dignity would you
suspect might be afforded there? , together with the repatriation
drama that may unfold.
My loved ones, like me, would just want to go home !!
Discuss with crew you may encounter, what happens because
there is immense effort on board to respect the privacy and
dignity of the passed away passenger. (How could you imagine
any crew thinking otherwise?) Your casual talk; 'public toilet'
strongly insults the sincere efforts of the responsible crew.

I ask again, what would you recommend?

[LindbergB767]

Originally Posted by stilton

At my US based major airline we have a
policy against and will not declare anyone
deceased in flight


Doctors onboard will be solicited, all assistance used and co ordination with
Med Link will help in making the divert decision but this scenario ‘he’s dead so
we might as well continue’ would not be
acceptable

It did happen to me while I was Captain on DC8 on a flight from UK to Montreal. Medical Doctor confirmed she was gone. We had no spare seat. I told to the cabin in charge to put an oxygen mask on her and just continue the fligh, so the pax around her would thing she was sleeping.. Police came on board as well another medical doctor to make sure she died naturally, then the pax were able to deplane.

[Needle Knocker]

Is a crew rest area ever an option for a deceased passenger?

[nicolai]

If the crew couldn't rest you'd have problems with flight duty regulations, and then you might have to divert to the arse end of Siberia anyway. Not a winning situation.

[tomdotcom]

Talking as a passenger, I dont think and hour would present much of a problem, but to sit beside a dead body for 10 hours would freak my wife out for sure, and she would not be comfortable climbing over them each time she wanted to go to the toilet. Not an expert, but how long does it take rigor mortis to set in. I appreciate unless a doctor is present to certify death then there might be a view to presume the person could be still alive but be in a coma or unconscious, but if rigor motis has set in, that shoud be a serious clue. I can appreciate the points about diverting, but surely in a large wide bodied aircraft on the long haul flights, there must be a corner somewhere they could stash a body?

[Sailvi767]

Originally Posted by Three Lima Charlie

I recall an old Braniff B-747 Captain that died enroute Honolulu to DFW while somewhere over LAX. They did not divert, but continued on to destination so as not to cause many problems for the passengers, crew and the airline. Body was held in the cockpit and his wife, who was an F/A on the flight, was not told until they landed.

I tend to doubt this story for two reasons. One if they did not land at the nearest suitable airport the FAA would have crucified the other pilots. Two there would have been obvious activity in and around the cockpit. The wife would have been calling the husband for a explanation. Even if she noticed nothing she would have called him and or visited the cockpit at some point.

[Needle Knocker]

Originally Posted by nicolai

If the crew couldn't rest you'd have problems with flight duty regulations, and then you might have to divert to the arse end of Siberia anyway. Not a winning situation.

There are usually multiple crew rest beds/"personal spaces"; in such an exceptional case as a passenger dying I really can't see how it would be anything other than a trivial matter for a couple of crew to share one of the other spaces in that circumstance - or for a crew member to relax in the deceased passenger's seat for that matter.

[innuendo]

Sailvi767, the event did happen and his wife was on board. I believe she was working the flight.

From FAA History site, last sentence in this extract.

Saturday, December 29, 1979nacted on this date, Public Law 96-171 required the National Institutes of Health to produce a study of FAA’s Age-60 rule (see March 15, 1960) in consultation with DOT. Within one year, NIH was to submit to Congress a study examining questions that included “whether an age limitation which prohibits all individuals who are sixty years of age or older from serving as pilots is medically warranted.”
The issue had come to a head because more airline pilots were reaching 60 than ever before, a trend that was expected to increase. The Pilots Rights Association, a group of some 300 older airline pilots, had waged a strong campaign against the rule. The Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) was divided on the question, with many members (especially younger ones) favoring the rule. (Later, ALPA’s board endorsed the Age-60 rule in a November 1980 vote that reversed the union’s longstanding position on the issue.) Another factor that may have influenced the congressional debate was a fatal in-flight heart attack suffered by a 59-year-old Braniff captain on March 13, 1979. The outcome was a legislative mandate for a study rather than a change in the rule.

[garpal gumnut]

On an Air NZ flight about to take off. Aborted.
Asked for a doctor.
Moi.
An elderly diabetic Italian gentleman with no English and chest pain insisted on continuing the flight, as did all his eight relatives.
Probably had their reasons.
I insisted on his offload.
Took 1.5 hrs to get going again but he survived and I got a free BC flight next time on Air NZ.

[racedo]

If a relatve of mine died on a flight then where their body was stored for duration of flight is to me irrelevant.

What is relevant is whether they had "treated the body with dignity and respect" since their demise, my expectation of CC would that in
99.9% of cases that would be the case.

In relation to moving the body then if FC is available then moving the body into a seat up there would be best case scenario, at least even
in jest family could say that his last flight was in 1st class.

Diverting while already dead is pointless as wouldn't want to try an get a body back from Vladivostock to Uk just because they needed to
drop off the body.

Would also have no issue sitting next to a dead body........................ assumming they had expired due to Heart attack etc and not Ebola
or likely to reanimate like in The Waking Dead.

[Less Hair]

Final upgrade to first? There is the point of the other passenger's needs. Most would not feel comfortable sitting next to some dead person for hours, even with some double dessert.