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Air Niugini Aircraft crash, Truk Lagoon

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Air Niugini Aircraft crash, Truk Lagoon

Old 9th Oct 2018, 07:19
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
If the landing gear wasn't down they would have had a terrain alert, right?
a “too low gear” and a persistent horn if the flaps are greater than 15 I believe.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 16:09
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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$ for "bravery"

Originally Posted by Tooheys
Well done Rodney and Phillip,

“I need to be commended for the bravery I displayed at that time in utilising my skills to save lives”

so humble as well
I'm thinking he could be looking for monetary commendation.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 19:20
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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In answer to the Sobelena post you replied:

Well OK, you tell us - short of an FDR/radar/ADS-B trajectory plot, what would you consider as indisputable evidence of either the undershoot or overshoot scenario ?

Have you seen any such evidence yet ?
I think you failed to grasp Sobelena's point
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 20:21
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Originally Posted by double_barrel
I suggest that it is likely that the journalist asked: “Do you think you should be rewarded the bravery you displayed at that time in utilising your skills to save lives”

And he replied '...sure...'.

Journalists love to put their own ideas and preconceptions into the words of their interviewees.
Your generosity leads me to believe you have never been anywhere near PNG.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 21:35
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
I think you failed to grasp Sobelena's point
Well feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but he/she appeared to be remarking on the fact that,10 days on from the accident, there doesn't seem to be universal agreement on the circumstances:

Originally Posted by Sobelena
I refer to my post on page 3. I've since been away for a week and on my return find we're now on page 11 and still not agreed on whether it was an undershoot or overshoot!
I simply pointed out that the evidence that's going to resolve that unambiguously (FDR traces, for example) hasn't yet been published.

What do you think he/she meant, and how would you have responded ? You still have time.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 21:59
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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I have been in PNG long enough to know that if you ask the time, the closest answer you get is that it's October.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 23:12
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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What do you think he/she meant, and how would you have responded ?
My interpretation from his/her original post was that it was simply a little humourous sarcasm. I smiled at it and moved on.
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Old 10th Oct 2018, 18:20
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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Press release today from the FSM IIC, which explains the continuing delay in downloading the FDR and CVR:

Press Release by the FSM Investigator-in-Charge / October 10, 2018 at 6:00 PM / No. 7

The aircraft accident investigators from the FSM, PNG and the USA arrived in Port Moresby from Chuuk on Sunday 7 October and immediately commenced work preparing the recorders for data download and subsequent analysis and analyzing records.

PNG AIC is using state of the art download electronic equipment specially brought to PNG from Canada for this accident investigation.

Because the aircraft crashed into the Chuuk Lagoon the recorders had been immersed in salt water. The AIC investigators have today completed the disassembly of the recorders to remove the data memory chip boards while they remain immersed in water. They have painstakingly cleaned them in distilled water to ensure no salt water and other contaminants remain on the boards.

The FDR and CVR boards are being dried in an oven for between 18 and 36 hours to ensure all traces of moisture have been removed before being connected to the downloading electronic equipment.

The international teams from PNG and the USA have been diligently assisting the FSM investigators. The Government of the Federated States of Micronesia is grateful for their support to achieve the best possible safety outcome for aviation globally and particularly in our region.

The FSM Government is pleased to learn that the PNG AIC is buying the 21st century technology MARS recorder download and analysis system and the Insight Flight Animation Software. This will ensure the AIC is at the cutting edge of this technology and will be equipped to conduct flight recorder downloading and analysis for years to come. This is vitally important for aviation safety throughout Pacific Region.

Official update to the media will be issued by the FSM Investigator in-charge.
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 20:58
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Further press release yesterday, 12th October:

Press Release by the FSM Investigator-in-Charge / October 12, 2018 at 6:00 PM / No. 8

On Wednesday October 10, 2018 investigators from the PNG Accident Investigation Commission (AIC) successfully downloaded the data from the Flight Data Recorder from the Boeing 737 that crashed in Chuuk lagoon of September 28, 2018. This was followed on Thursday October 11 with the successful download of the data from the Cockpit Voice Recorder.

The meticulous preparation and cleaning and drying of the data chip boards by the AIC investigators and the use of the state of the art MARS recorder download and analysis system brought in from Canada, was instrumental to the success of the downloads, and speeded up what would otherwise have been a much longer process. This process was conducted in the AIC’s Flight Recorder Laboratory in Port Moresby in the presence of an investigator from the FSM.

The data will now be jointly analysed by the FSM TC&I investigators and investigation teams from the US NTSB and the PNG AIC to determine the factors that contributed to this accident.

The AIC will analyze the data using the latest version of the Insight Analysis software and the Flight Animation System (FAS). This will provide the FSM Investigation team with a high quality animated visual reproduction of the recovered data.

Our respective Nations’ resources are finite, so it is important that small countries such as PNG and FSM share resources and draw on available expertise in the interest of aviation safety improvement. The people of FSM and PNG are assured that their safety is paramount whether they are travelling in FSM, PNG, or flying beyond our borders.

The Government of the Federated States of Micronesia is grateful for the ongoing support from the PNG and USA Governments to achieve the best possible safety outcome for aviation globally and particularly in our region.

Official update to the media will be issued by the FSM Investigator in-charge.
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 21:09
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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Jings, I thought FDR and CVR were sealed units, and salt water would not normally get inside them?
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 21:23
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Niugini aircraft used the other ones....
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Old 14th Oct 2018, 22:07
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DType, put "are flight recorders waterproof" into google.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 00:01
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Originally Posted by portmanteau
DType, put "are flight recorders waterproof" into google.
Regardless of water damage, the data is recoverable.

My evidence is anecdotal, but I have recovered "water resistant" equipment soaked in 50-100 ft salt water before.

When I was a radio technician I restored many Motorola radios (surface mount, close spacing between traces, pre-MIL-STD-810C) to service after being immersed in salt water for weeks before the divers got around to harvesting them. I had a 100% recovery rate by flushing them and soaking them in distilled water, followed by a flush/soak of about 10% isopropanol and an low-temp oven bake. (They usually became corroded and unreliable after a year or so).

In this case, a rinse and bake after a week or two if immersion will certainly allow for full data recovery in short time.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 06:21
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SysDude
In this case, a rinse and bake after a week or two if immersion will certainly allow for full data recovery in short time.
As indeed it already has done, according to the report.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 18:10
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Micronesia is a “United States associated state”. Why is the NTSB not investigating this accident?
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 18:22
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
Micronesia is a “United States associated state”. Why is the NTSB not investigating this accident?
FSM is a UN member state. The NTSB has no authority there.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 18:49
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Dave, I know that but given their association with the USA, I’m surprised that the NTSB was not invited to be the lead investigator.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 19:53
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
Dave, I know that but given their association with the USA, I’m surprised that the NTSB was not invited to be the lead investigator.
Lots of other considerations like

country of accident
country with most passengers/citizens involved
issues relating to operation, Weather, ATC, Airport, pilot training etc.
issues relating to airworthiness of aircraft or engines
Availability of pertinent facts or investigating expertise including manpower
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 21:13
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo
Lots of other considerations like

country of accident
country with most passengers/citizens involved
issues relating to operation, Weather, ATC, Airport, pilot training etc.
issues relating to airworthiness of aircraft or engines
Availability of pertinent facts or investigating expertise including manpower
The state of occurrence has responsibility for the investigation, as per Annex 13. Other interested parties - the state where the aircraft is registered, the state of manufacture, etc - are entitled to be affiliated to the investigation, in this case PNG and the USA. That doesn't prevent the responsible state from delegating part or all of the investigation (but not the responsibility for it) to any state of its choosing.

We know, for example, that the FDR and CVR have gone to PNG for analysis (overseen by FSM investigators), whereas the EGPWS has gone to the manufacturer in the USA.

Regardless of who is carrying out various parts of the investigation, the protocol is that the lead state (FSM) is responsible for release of any information on its progress. That, so far, has taken the form of 8 press releases at the last count, plus an undertaking to publish the usual interim report within the prescribed 30 days.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 11:56
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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portmanteau
Thanks.
It makes sense that what is normally "waterproof" may not be waterproof after an abnormal event, which event is the reason for accessing the data.
However, this event appears to have been relatively gentle, hence my (ignorant) surprise.
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