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Air India at JFK...gone with the wind..!?

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Air India at JFK...gone with the wind..!?

Old 16th Sep 2018, 16:36
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Air India at JFK...gone with the wind..!?

Jesus Christ...almost everything gone...!!???


Incident: India B773 at New York on Sep 11th 2018, multiple instruments including localizer receivers lost

BTW, amazing job by ATC and Crew !
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 17:22
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That first comment is very interesting.
Did they dispatch with the right IDG inop?
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 05:56
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Sounds like a lot of confusion on the flight deck. No such thing as a VNAV approach. Their request was probably confusing the crap out of the controller. Sounds like the ATCO is a pilot or at least knows quite a bit about airplanes.

They where probably looking for an RNAV approach. Donít know what AICís capabilities and certification allow, but there are plenty of RNAV RNP approaches into JFK.

Flying the ILS in LNAV/VNAV to mŪnima would be an emergency only option, sort of like descending below minima. The ILS might have LOC only minima as an option, but that would still require the Localizer.

Again, very lucky to have an ATCO that was able to put together a plan for them and sort of declare a soft mayday for them in the background. Not familiar with 777 fuel figures, but 7200kg is not exactly critical. That seems like enough to make it to Logan and land with 2-3T.

Indeed, very strange and interesting incident. Happy that it all turned out well in the end. Well done to NY ATC for helping out.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 06:39
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Good job by all. In some craphole this could have ended differently. It seems to me that crew were unwilling to declare panpan even though they were getting low on fuel and practically had loss of instrumentation. Perhaps busting the minima to save the aircraft is a criminal offence in Air India..
7200kg must be within minutes to final reserve fuel in 777.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 07:09
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77W uses about 6T an hour at that late stage I’d guess so probably 72 mins left......luxury
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 07:11
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7200 kg would be way more than final reserve fuel in a 777.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 07:29
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Luxury it maybe, and we're all better off for them not having to eek that out to vapours / fresh air. Well done everyone involved for getting wheels on to tarmac with the rest of the airframe attached and in one piece.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 10:57
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An utterly poorly managed flight deck . Embarrassing to say the least.

Having said that , anytime I fly over or into India the standards I see / hear ( ATC) are just appalling.

Could they ( B777 crew ) not have made one clear transmission without all the gobble- gook and request a non precision approach and not over complicate the job of the ATCO who is not suppose to know all the terms you transmitted.


Lucky the controller done a great job in supporting you.


Last edited by Cloudtopper; 17th Sep 2018 at 10:59. Reason: .
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 12:19
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Originally Posted by Cloudtopper View Post
An utterly poorly managed flight deck . Embarrassing to say the least.

Having said that , anytime I fly over or into India the standards I see / hear ( ATC) are just appalling.

Could they ( B777 crew ) not have made one clear transmission without all the gobble- gook and request a non precision approach and not over complicate the job of the ATCO who is not suppose to know all the terms you transmitted.


Lucky the controller done a great job in supporting you.

I felt the communication was clear & the crew must have been under a lot of pressure & managed well enough. To me it seemed a good example of ATCO & crew resource management
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 13:08
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Originally Posted by Sqwak7700 View Post
They where probably looking for an RNAV approach. Donít know what AICís capabilities and certification allow, but there are plenty of RNAV RNP approaches into JFK.
No need to go to RNP AR. JFK has six RNAV IAPs, all with LPV, LNAV/VNAV, and LNAV lines of minima.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 15:13
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 15:39
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Jfk has lots of Rnav/GPS approaches, but none with mda down to 200 feet.
min fuel is around 3 tons in 777W
however flying around at 2000 feet is going to burn little extra.
luckily weather improved and all ended well
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 15:54
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
That first comment is very interesting.
Did they dispatch with the right IDG inop?
Not sure but you can do 180 minute ETOPS on the Triple with an IDG MEL'ed under U.S. rules. But you need the APU generator.

And that triple bus isolation on approach is famous for odd glitches with a generator out in my experience. I remember hours of ground school explanations of what should happen if you lost a remaining generator above 1500 feet, below 1500 feet, on alternate Thursday's etc. Bus tie locked open, closed, whatever.

Since they had one RA and no GS maybe the bus isolation did not go well on the first approach and a BTB stayed in ISLN after the missed. Of course, if they had some more MEL's on the GS, LOC and RA's as some have suggested on other forums it wouldn't have helped.

From a media report:

"Basically, we've got a single source radio altimeter, we have a Traffic Collision and Avoidance System failure", radioed in the Commander of the Air India 777-300 to Air Traffic Control in New York. "No Auto-land, no windshear systems, (no) Auto Speed Brake and the Auxillary Power Unit is unserviceable as well," he added.

And that was not all. All three Instrument Landing System (ILS) receivers on board the jet malfunctioned. ILS is the key system that helps pilots align the jet with the runway during landing in any weather condition, day and night.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/as-m...-board-1917842

Listening to the tapes, my guess is that the pilots have spent much more time in New York than the controller has spent in India. It sounds to me like the controller couldn't understand a lot of the rapid AI 101 dialog but he was doing a great job trying. Some of us remember the first time we went into DEL or BOM trying to decipher thick Punjabi or Marathi accents. Or going into JFK listening to a Bronx accent for that matter.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 16:09
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Make the GA, ask for a holding area, determine your new status, ask for weather, check your options, decide where to go with what kind of approach, ask for respective clearance.
If wx, tech or fuel status, or clearance are unsatisfactory, declare fuel emergency/mayday and do the most appropriate approach to put the aircraft safely on ground irrespective of minimums or regulations.
Donít waste your and ATCs time with too much irrelevant babbel.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 16:37
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An unpleasant and unusual situation for both the crew and controllers. Disregard glofish's comment about "irrelevant babble". In this situation there is bound to be an amount of thinking aloud by both parties. Had they had 30 minutes notice of the failures the crew would have been able to give concise statements and requests and these would have been returned by the controllers with concise options and clearances.
My experience of Air India is that they only speak with an accent...they don't think with one. And as for the JFK and New York Controllers they were as helpful as I would expect them to be so well done everyone involved chaps!
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 18:19
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Originally Posted by Lou Scannon View Post
Disregard glofish's comment about "irrelevant babble". In this situation there is bound to be an amount of thinking aloud by both parties.
There has been enough accidents in the past when vital information hasn't been passed, both ways. Avianca Flight 52 in this neck of the woods springs to mind.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 18:30
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Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
No need to go to RNP AR. JFK has six RNAV IAPs, all with LPV, LNAV/VNAV, and LNAV lines of minima.
Don't think the big jets can do LPV, can they?
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 22:59
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APU on an ETOPS?



Would an unserviceable APU indicate that electrical bus configurations may have been changed at some time during the flight?

Perhaps I'm assuming too much -- does ETOPS on a 777-300 require an operational APU for dispatch?
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Old 18th Sep 2018, 00:45
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Originally Posted by wiedehopf View Post
Don't think the big jets can do LPV, can they?
Most cannot. My point is those procedures have LPV, LNAV/VNAV, and LNAV minimums.
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Old 18th Sep 2018, 00:56
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Originally Posted by Zeffy View Post
Would an unserviceable APU indicate that electrical bus configurations may have been changed at some time during the flight?

Perhaps I'm assuming too much -- does ETOPS on a 777-300 require an operational APU for dispatch?
According to the FAA MMEL you can do 180 minute ETOPS on the 777 with an inop APU generator with both engine IDG's working and backup AC checked before every flight. Some of this MEL stuff is grandfathered from the 767 ETOPS certification three decades ago.

I've never been comfortable with generator inop dispatch on an ETOPS twin but there is indeed MEL relief in many cases.

I too am curious whether the APU was dispatched inop or was unable to start due to some electrical fault? Or was an IDG dispatched inop and some glitch propagated through the electrical system when a breaker opened or failed to close with a bus loss on the first approach?

Years ago I took a non-ETOPS 757 with an IDG inop. There was an unusual pause before the legacy CRT screens came back up after the first engine start, maybe some relay clicked out of sequence. Airborne the heading bug on the EHSI became unsynced with the HDG window on the MCP. We were in VNAV and it didn't look right so we tried FLCH and then both lights were illuminated. It was the old days and a short leg so we popped off the autopilot and flew the plane to the destination without the benefit of autoflight (oh, the horror ). On the ground the mechanics removed all power from the plane and restarted, it seemed to reboot the FCC's and we handed the aircraft to another crew.
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