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Well paid KLM pilots think about strike: article

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Well paid KLM pilots think about strike: article

Old 18th Aug 2018, 10:29
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Well paid KLM pilots think about strike: article

Interesting article about the pay at KLM versus other airlines... It is in dutch and behind a pay wall but it compares average income and production at KLM versus other flag carriers, LCC and middle east carriers. As it is on gross income it is not completely fair but still the image the KLM pilots create of themselves is similar to the primadonnas at AF.

What really hurts an airline like KLM is that the seniority system doesnt allow DEP and so although they have a pilot shortage and a training capacity issue they can only have new hires at the bottom of the list and have to retrain them... So any new hire that might be rated and up to their standards might have to do a new TR on a different "start" type and thus creating more of an issue from a training perspective...

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2450...ken-aan-staken
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 10:49
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Quite astounding that the salaries mentioned there, do not account for the fact that income is taxed 52% in the netherlands, and in the middle east 0%.
Makes it all a bit different.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 11:12
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True, but you do get things like unions and employment rights, some social security benefits and live in Amsterdam instead of Dubai/Abu Dhabi or Doha.
Pilots are currently bailing out of EK even without a job to go to so the sandpit isn't nirvana.

KLM would be a lot better off without Air France dragging them down.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 14:12
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Even without the 52% is still 12.000 net x month 😍
not to mention some tax returns and you’re living in Europe instead of that “thing” called sandpit.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 22:41
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Would anyone like to copy and paste that article in English ?

Guess Lufty and AF raise the European average.

Meanwhile 160K Euros for a wide-body sand pit command with the number of hours they do .... is that true?
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 01:24
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False info

it states an average captain (I assume with a full-time contract) makes only around 600 hours a year. I’ve made 720 hours last year... so where do they get these numbers...?
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 07:11
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Originally Posted by Capt Ecureuil View Post
Would anyone like to copy and paste that article in English ?

Guess Lufty and AF raise the European average.

Meanwhile 160K Euros for a wide-body sand pit command with the number of hours they do .... is that true?
Google translate, so no guarantees.......

The data are in the possession of De Telegraaf.


Yesterday it became known that KLM pilots use the route to strike, because the airline does not want to meet them sufficiently in terms of salaries and reduced workload.

The HPK group says that KLM pilots stand out in almost all categories. On average, KLM spends € 291,238 on a captain, which is 24% more than the German or British airlines. It concerns the total package of employment conditions, including profit distributions, holiday allowance, extra days worked and bonuses.

Profit payment

A KLM captain on a smaller aircraft such as the Boeing 737 earns 17% more than with Lufthansa or British Airways. Compared to the price fighters, the gap is even greater, the KLM pilot is 70% above the prize fighter pilot. The difference is partly due to the profit distribution of € 45 million made last year to the 2800 KLM pilots.

The KLM pilot is also at the bottom of the flight hours, according to the comparison. A breakpoint in the negotiations between the KLM management and the Dutch Traffic Flyers Association (VNV) is relief from the workload.

A captain on intercontinental flights at KLM is at 646 flight hours a year, which is 733 hours with airlines from the Middle East. American pilots have the least flight hours with 603 at long distances.

"It abrases enormously"
Within KLM, the unrest among the pilots is being looked at with great care. "Internally, it scans enormously that there are large salary differences in the workplace. The workload of the ground staff is also high, but do the pilots have the heavier? However, KLM and the VNV are never accountable for the internal income ratio. The KLM management is now reaping the acid benefits, "is the analysis of FNV director Jan van den Brink.

He is not constantly measuring between the different groups within KLM, because then the end is lost, according to the trade unionist. "The widest shoulders should carry the heaviest loads, but in practice it is skewed. Is that an honest relationship in 2018? KLM is not afraid of that discussion. "

Right to strike

The European Social Charter states that employees may cease if they do not agree with their employer about their terms of employment or the contents of a collective labor agreement. This is independent of what these employees earn. "Nowhere has it been determined that this has a financial upper limit. Despite the fact that it strikes society that well paid pilots stop, they have the right to strike, "says labor lawyer Pascal Besselink of legal services provider DAS.

In the constituency of the VNV, one is divided over possible strikes. Some pilots point out that the difference between management and trade union is not so great. Finally, an agreement was reached on a salary increase of 4% and a reduction of the workload of 4%. "I am convinced that work interruptions are not necessary. The unanimity and therefore the power comes from a beautiful new collective labor agreement. We are obliged to the next generations ", says Fred Heijer on the pilots forum.

The VNV does not respond to a request for comment, just as KLM does. Before the airline goes down, the VNV members still have to agree with further actions. That moment is now planned for the beginning of September
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 09:03
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Originally Posted by Jack330 View Post
Even without the 52% is still 12.000 net x month 😍
not to mention some tax returns and you’re living in Europe instead of that “thing” called sandpit.
Wrong. It is about €10000 per month. And I know, because I only need to look at my own paystub. No research bureau needed. And that amount of €291.000 is also complete bullshit. Do the math.
Besides, money is not what this conflict is about. It is ultimately about power/influence/control. Management are waging a war on the union, which started in 2013. There is a deep resentment against pilots, and a drive to break them by playing a blame game and pro-active squeezing of the workforce.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 09:19
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Actually the figure seems about right for the cost to the company. Adding in training, pensions, employer taxes, associated administration costs etc then an employer cost of about a 25% mark up on gross salary seems about right.

Taking your figure if 10K as net after 50% individual taxes, that makes a gross around 20K - so the overall cost the company would be around 25K - or around 300K per year.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 09:23
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If you at the top of the charts, you are going to need to fight to stay there. Good luck to them. You only need to look at the rewards offered worldwide to see what happens if you are not prepared to fight your corner.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 09:49
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F9, regardless of the actual numbers, what you are saying is indeed unfortunate and worrisome. But how do you avoid giving the impression that pilots are not doing so bad "after all", instead other personnel from Your Company will be affected as a result of this conflict. I do hope that one day, the pilots decide to step in to defend your Other Colleagues, and how your Company as a whole appears to passengers like me.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 11:35
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Originally Posted by pax2908 View Post
F9, regardless of the actual numbers, what you are saying is indeed unfortunate and worrisome. But how do you avoid giving the impression that pilots are not doing so bad "after all", instead other personnel from Your Company will be affected as a result of this conflict. I do hope that one day, the pilots decide to step in to defend your Other Colleagues, and how your Company as a whole appears to passengers like me.
KLM pilots have not gone on strike since '95, unlike the "Other Colleagues". I can't remember anybody here concerned with defending their colleagues, nor the company at the time the cabin crew wereld on strike.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 12:02
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The average flight hour numbers are correct. The problem with these numbers are that most of the pilots at KLM ar flying part-time, because that allows you to extend your pension date.
Furthermore as the article suggest, the number is higher then normal because KLM made a 1time deposit in the pension fund, without this the number would be much lower.
and to add: for the M3, they should add the free housing etc to the mentioned numbers, then the picture would be much different
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 16:24
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post

Wrong. It is about €10000 per month. And I know, because I only need to look at my own paystub. No research bureau needed. And that amount of €291.000 is also complete bullshit. Do the math.
Besides, money is not what this conflict is about. It is ultimately about power/influence/control. Management are waging a war on the union, which started in 2013. There is a deep resentment against pilots, and a drive to break them by playing a blame game and pro-active squeezing of the workforce.
Well the problem is self induced as well.... If only you could hire DEP on specific types you would solve 99% of the staffing problems. Pilots are still interested to join KLM as the pay is still good and the production very, very low.. But the seniority system and hiring practices are [email protected] up any change to get new bodies in quickly.. Case in point are theTUIfly 787 pilots that are joining and all will have to be retrained on the 73 or Emb. Waste of capital and time.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 21:12
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Originally Posted by Global_Global View Post
Well the problem is self induced as well.... If only you could hire DEP on specific types you would solve 99% of the staffing problems. Pilots are still interested to join KLM as the pay is still good and the production very, very low.. But the seniority system and hiring practices are [email protected] up any change to get new bodies in quickly.. Case in point are theTUIfly 787 pilots that are joining and all will have to be retrained on the 73 or Emb. Waste of capital and time.
Of course if other legacy European or US airlines hired direct entry captains, many captains would leave KLM for better jobs. You could make the point that seniority system actually helps them retain staff and keeps labor costs down.
Besides, this dispute is not about money; the salary paragraph has already been agreed to, is the same modest increase that all of the other unions got recently, and is not under discussion​​​​. The dispute is about the fact that there is general agreement that the last deal in 2015 was too concessionary and needs to be rectified. Only KLM’s management is offering nothing more than promises to make things better at some vague point in the future, and the pilot’s union doesn’t believe them (with good reason). Unlike the unions in some other European countries, Dutch unions hate strikes; in the almost 100 year history of Dutch ALPA you could count the number of strikes on one hand, the last one being 23 years ago, so hopefully this can be solved with some good old-fashioned Dutch give-and-take.

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Old 19th Aug 2018, 21:25
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post

Wrong. It is about €10000 per month. And I know, because I only need to look at my own paystub. No research bureau needed. And that amount of €291.000 is also complete bullshit. Do the math.
Besides, money is not what this conflict is about. It is ultimately about power/influence/control. Management are waging a war on the union, which started in 2013. There is a deep resentment against pilots, and a drive to break them by playing a blame game and pro-active squeezing of the workforce.
Pilots..... God's own creation. 10g net is unbelievable much. What do you think the ground engineer gets a month? If he gets 3000 its a lot. They do the work, 40hrs a week. Weekends, nights. And you guys complain. The arrogance...
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 22:55
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Originally Posted by ErwinS View Post
Pilots..... God's own creation. 10g net is unbelievable much. What do you think the ground engineer gets a month? If he gets 3000 its a lot. They do the work, 40hrs a week. Weekends, nights. And you guys complain. The arrogance...
want 10K a month for you too?


Easy... become a pilot.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 23:26
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Originally Posted by ErwinS View Post
Pilots..... God's own creation. 10g net is unbelievable much. What do you think the ground engineer gets a month? If he gets 3000 its a lot. They do the work, 40hrs a week. Weekends, nights. And you guys complain. The arrogance...
Everybody had the chance of becoming a pilot. Everyone had the chance to send an application to KLM. But they only take the one they like.That's their right. As my neighbor only hires people for his plumbing business he thinks fit to his company.
Nobody of us will have a better life if one KLM pilot is taken something away. As an employee it is stupid to try to get the others down. If there are others who earn more, you must try to get up on their level.
Sorry for the bad english, but I am no native speaker. ( This is also true for Netherlands )
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 00:14
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Originally Posted by fab777 View Post


want 10K a month for you too?


Easy... become a pilot.
Read between the lines. I dont want 10K a month. Fact is that pilots are overpaid compared to most suporting staff. But still they think they are flying Gods and think the whole airline turns around them.

But since most of the posters are pilots..... Think they disagree...
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 00:23
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Are us pilots overpaid or are everyone else underpaid?

Do airlines really need to be making billions in profit for the benefit of shareholders who haven't lifted a finger?
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