Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?
Some of the questions posed on this thread are addressed in this Seattle Times article:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/we-were-all-screaming-oh-my-god%e2%80%8a-how-the-horizon-air-theft-and-crash-unfolded/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Mor ning+Brief+8-13-13_8_13_2018&utm_term=Active%20subscriber
As has been noted, the area where the aircraft was parked is quite near the departure area at the north end of SeaTac - from the point he started moving until he took off was likely only a couple minutes (especially since he took off without any clearance, in front of another departing aircraft). I'm mildly impressed that ATC even noticed he was there prior to his taking off.
BTW, the earlier 5 minute F-15 response time posted earlier (that was repeatedly attacked) appears to have been pretty reasonable:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/we-were-all-screaming-oh-my-god%e2%80%8a-how-the-horizon-air-theft-and-crash-unfolded/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Mor ning+Brief+8-13-13_8_13_2018&utm_term=Active%20subscriber
As has been noted, the area where the aircraft was parked is quite near the departure area at the north end of SeaTac - from the point he started moving until he took off was likely only a couple minutes (especially since he took off without any clearance, in front of another departing aircraft). I'm mildly impressed that ATC even noticed he was there prior to his taking off.
BTW, the earlier 5 minute F-15 response time posted earlier (that was repeatedly attacked) appears to have been pretty reasonable:
About 130 miles south of Sea-Tac, two F-15C jets of 142nd Fighter Wing, on alert round-the-clock to defend an area between Northern California and the San Juan Islands, took off.
Armed with missiles and a six-barrel cannon, and capable of flying at two-and-a-half times the speed of sound, the planes closed most of the distance to Sea-Tac in four minutes, creating a sonic boom on their way. They were ordered, the North American Aerospace Defense Command said, to try to direct the plane over the Pacific Ocean.
Armed with missiles and a six-barrel cannon, and capable of flying at two-and-a-half times the speed of sound, the planes closed most of the distance to Sea-Tac in four minutes, creating a sonic boom on their way. They were ordered, the North American Aerospace Defense Command said, to try to direct the plane over the Pacific Ocean.
So I assume that unaccompanied ground staff are now a thing of the past and ALL ground staff must now go through more rigorous security checks and only be permitted to the Apron in pairs, we could call it the ‘two on the apron rule’.......... right?
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Antagonising the guy also may have made things worse.. What if he then decided to take out the Control Tower with him!
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I am no psychologist. This is supposition only. ATC was exemplary, and there is no reason to suggest another and different approach to convince the pilot to attempt a landing. He did good. But he was out of character, ATC needs to be direct and authoritative, it is in the job description.
So. The pilot is described as outgoing, smart, and compassionate. In the scheme of things, we give what we get, so any “personality” can be simply the result of what we want back from people. A “compliant”, and pleasing/pleasant person might not be amenable to soft understanding response from authority. ATC is authority, and morphing from authority into empathetic “buddy” might be the opposite of what is needed. People pleasers are generally subject to compliance, it gets learned into the dynamic.
“I am going to give you a heading, you need to comply, and get that aircraft configured.” “NOW!!...” “Beebo” sounds like a bit of a spoiled brat. Sweet nothings don’t work on such a person. He may have been “placated” all his life. It is clear that suicidal or not, he needed some talking to, by an authority, not a buddy.
imo
So. The pilot is described as outgoing, smart, and compassionate. In the scheme of things, we give what we get, so any “personality” can be simply the result of what we want back from people. A “compliant”, and pleasing/pleasant person might not be amenable to soft understanding response from authority. ATC is authority, and morphing from authority into empathetic “buddy” might be the opposite of what is needed. People pleasers are generally subject to compliance, it gets learned into the dynamic.
“I am going to give you a heading, you need to comply, and get that aircraft configured.” “NOW!!...” “Beebo” sounds like a bit of a spoiled brat. Sweet nothings don’t work on such a person. He may have been “placated” all his life. It is clear that suicidal or not, he needed some talking to, by an authority, not a buddy.
imo
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I've been following this thread from post to post but perhaps I have missed something. Does anyone know why the aircraft actually crashed? I mean, was he conducting another aerobatic manoeuvre that, like his 'barrel roll', fell apart in execution and this time had no means of escape? Or was it a deliberate CFIT? I'm guessing this is what the accident investigation will be attempting to determine. Has anyone heard if the FDR and CVR have been recovered?
Part of the recorded radio conversation from 'Rich'
Make of that what you will. No doubt the recorders, if they are viable, will reveal what actually happened.
" I think I'm gonna try to do a barrel roll, and if that goes good, I'm just gonna nosedown and call it a night.”
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flightglobal.com/news/articles/fbi-recovers-recorders-from-crashed-horizon-q400-451092/
'The Federal Bureau of Investigation has recovered the flight data recorder and "components" of the cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage of a stolen Horizon Air Bombardier Q400 that crashed outside Seattle on 10 August.'
'The FBI does not specify the condition of the cockpit voice or cockpit data recorders, both of which are now with the National Transportation Safety Board for processing, it says.'
'The Federal Bureau of Investigation has recovered the flight data recorder and "components" of the cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage of a stolen Horizon Air Bombardier Q400 that crashed outside Seattle on 10 August.'
'The FBI does not specify the condition of the cockpit voice or cockpit data recorders, both of which are now with the National Transportation Safety Board for processing, it says.'
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It can start from the battery as long as there's enough juice and you would need one engine completely stabilized before starting the other one. Generally battery start on a Q400 requires to go through a special check list and the procedure is not really recommended (not that this guy cared, just saying)
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thanx martin ! another question : to be able for radio communication you have to engage the avionicd , correct ?
just trying to figure out how much time he needed minimum to start both engines , connect the generators and engage avionics before he was able to taxi out
just trying to figure out how much time he needed minimum to start both engines , connect the generators and engage avionics before he was able to taxi out
I've been following this thread from post to post but perhaps I have missed something. Does anyone know why the aircraft actually crashed? I mean, was he conducting another aerobatic manoeuvre that, like his 'barrel roll', fell apart in execution and this time had no means of escape? Or was it a deliberate CFIT? I'm guessing this is what the accident investigation will be attempting to determine. Has anyone heard if the FDR and CVR have been recovered?
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If you steal a car but don't have a driving licence you are still the "driver".
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fargoo... nice ... but like said previously not to be confused with the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft as a profession for a living .
....before somebody takes this event to call for more menthal health checks on this group of people...
....before somebody takes this event to call for more menthal health checks on this group of people...
I’m doing some DIY woodworking this afternoon but I don’t think I would ever describe myself as a “carpenter”
“
(Shorter Oxford English Dictionary - A craftsman in woodwork esp. of rough solid kinds as in house or shipbuilding..)
As aerobat says let’s not use this accident as an excuse to increase mental health checks on pilots...the victim here was a ground agent trying to pilot/fly an aircraft.
“
(Shorter Oxford English Dictionary - A craftsman in woodwork esp. of rough solid kinds as in house or shipbuilding..)
As aerobat says let’s not use this accident as an excuse to increase mental health checks on pilots...the victim here was a ground agent trying to pilot/fly an aircraft.
Just a quick question, people.
What will happen as far as the insurance is concerned ? All null & void as no qualified pilot in command,-
or how can the insurers weasel their way out of it.
Do aircraft that are hijacked still have insurance cover ??
What will happen as far as the insurance is concerned ? All null & void as no qualified pilot in command,-
or how can the insurers weasel their way out of it.
Do aircraft that are hijacked still have insurance cover ??
I believe the last radio call from the aircraft mentioned "I feel like one of my engines is going out or something..." and in several prior transmissions he noted the fuel was dropping rapidly:
Rich: I’m down to 21 hundred, I started like 30 something.
ATC: Rich you said you had 2,100 pounds of fuel left?
And later:
Rich: Yeah I don’t know what the burnage... burnout... is like on take-off, but yeah it’s burned quite a bit faster than I expected.
It would seem likely he ran out fuel? From prior PPRuNe posts,GY it seems the Q400 fuel burn rate was noted to be 1800lbs/hr holding and 2700lbs/hr margin rate. I believe the stolen aircraft was in the air for at least an hour, which lines up with the numbers in the radio transmissions.
- GY
Rich: I’m down to 21 hundred, I started like 30 something.
ATC: Rich you said you had 2,100 pounds of fuel left?
And later:
Rich: Yeah I don’t know what the burnage... burnout... is like on take-off, but yeah it’s burned quite a bit faster than I expected.
It would seem likely he ran out fuel? From prior PPRuNe posts,GY it seems the Q400 fuel burn rate was noted to be 1800lbs/hr holding and 2700lbs/hr margin rate. I believe the stolen aircraft was in the air for at least an hour, which lines up with the numbers in the radio transmissions.
- GY
But we get the point.