Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?
Heads up only, I won’t post the details here.. There is what seems to be a theory elsewhere that is erm, remarkable. It seems to me that this official story might bear some fruit if NTSB published a more complete report. Forewarned is forearmed. This occurrence is (thankfully) a very rare one, but wouidn’t more data arm the professionals on the ramp with better tools to foreclose repetition? Nothing more to be gained? Who decided that? Shouldn't Aviation professionals make that call?
The FBI will obviously be the lead Agency as the incident was a purposeful act involving a string of Federal crimes being committed. The NTSB investigators will of course be at the FBI's disposal to investigate aviation-related matters and aviation tech issues to whatever extent is necessary for the over-riding and ongoing criminal investigation. As law enforcement, the FBI has investigative powers that Agencies like the NTSB don't have when it comes to interviewing people who might be associated with the perpetrator, establishing who was what and where when it was it was happening, and can dig into backgrounds and records to try and establish or eliminate motive far more deeply than the NTSB can. When the investigation is underway and it becomes established what happened that day undoubtedly as lapses in security are found recommendations and input will be asked-for from those familiar with logistics of how it could be handled.
The lack of an NTSB final report itself is meaningless. Even within their domain NTSB only makes recommendations that are not legally mandated, nor are they set up for criminal investigations or to produce findings with respect to criminal acts. The aircraft accident investigation is still there, but just a small part of a much larger and encompassing criminal one being conducted by the FBI who aren't going to only want to know "what happened" and ways to prevent it from happening again, but why he did it as well.
"Why he did it" questions also directly pertain to preventing a future occurrence, and to this end many be questions will be asked and much records-digging conducted re his finances, marital problems/extramarital affairs, substance abuse, history of mental health going back as far as they can, career underachievement/job satisfaction, family relationships, what was going on with his college, others sources of stress, his video game obsession, his approaching 30th birthday, etc etc etc. Anything relating to whatever he said over the radio will certainly be looked-at, especially his side comments about his employment/employer as it shouldn't be forgotten that the greatest damage he did was to his own company, and he commented about wages, "higher-ups taking notice" of what he was doing, and a perceived lack of opportunity for advancement. He may have tried to sound like he was joking, but something made him think of them.
Plus, his wife and family won't be able to just issue a public statement like they have and then clam-up when it's FBI investigators doing the asking in the course of their investigation. The FBI can compel answers if they aren't forthcoming during interviews. As one who would normally know him best in a healthy relationship, his wife will naturally be the focus of much questioning, and undoubtedly it was noticed that in the course of his conversations with ATC mentioning "those who love me" he failed to specifically mention her.
As a general rule it's not a great idea for the NTSB to publicly publish all the ways security was/could be breached and an aircraft successfully stolen from the middle of a busy airport like SeaTac. Inside job or not, air carrier-related common strategy and security measures aren't normally for public consumption. The accident wasn't a result of mechanical issues, weather, or a breakdown of CRM in the cockpit, it was the result of someone purposely committing numerous crimes. Any aircraft accident where they know (like this one) or it's revealed during an NTSB/FAA investigation that a crime may have contributed, it becomes the FBI's domain.
Last edited by PukinDog; 18th Aug 2018 at 15:17.
sua cuique voluptas
After he (presumably) disconnect the tug, how did he get back on board? Does this model have built-in air stairs, or would the re-entry to the cockpit require a ladder which he then kicked away before closing whichever entry point to the aircraft? Just curious....
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there is no way to make this less mysterious without more data. Joy ride, some acro, banter with center and a face plant.
end of.
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I was an airline mechanic for 19 years and have been taxi qualified in many different models of Fokker, Boeing, and Airbus. These aircraft do not have door locks, wheel locks, or ignition keys/locks. The security is a big fence, cameras, roving patrols, airport workers, etc. This guys job was moving aircraft around for parking, etc. Even if they had locks, he'd have the key.
I've thought several times that if I was willing to kill myself, there would be nothing preventing me from taking one of these airliners and taking off. Many times I've done high speed taxis on the runway (at night) to troubleshoot pilot write-ups for things like nose wheel shimmy.. There would always be two mechanics driving the plane but that was just for company rules. Just about on any given night I could have taken a plane. There's no way to prevent this. Prevention starts by the job interview and 10 year background check. Then years of service as well as classroom training. At that point if a guy goes nuts you can't place blame on anyone except him.
I've thought several times that if I was willing to kill myself, there would be nothing preventing me from taking one of these airliners and taking off. Many times I've done high speed taxis on the runway (at night) to troubleshoot pilot write-ups for things like nose wheel shimmy.. There would always be two mechanics driving the plane but that was just for company rules. Just about on any given night I could have taken a plane. There's no way to prevent this. Prevention starts by the job interview and 10 year background check. Then years of service as well as classroom training. At that point if a guy goes nuts you can't place blame on anyone except him.
-drl
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how ridiculous it was to have a soon-to-be-at-work pilot give up his spork
As a Line Maintenance Lead Mechanic in uniform in MCO post 911, I was forced by security to either give up my ratchet or return it to my car (which I did). Mechanics need tools, right?
The strange thing is that every night maintenance employees would park at a satellite lot and the company van would pick us up. In that case we could bring all the tools, knives, etc we wanted because we would drive up to a security gate and just show our badges. They never checked inside
As a Line Maintenance Lead Mechanic in uniform in MCO post 911, I was forced by security to either give up my ratchet or return it to my car (which I did). Mechanics need tools, right?
The strange thing is that every night maintenance employees would park at a satellite lot and the company van would pick us up. In that case we could bring all the tools, knives, etc we wanted because we would drive up to a security gate and just show our badges. They never checked inside
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at an international airport
-you would get every attention when you startup the engines without any startup clearance and with no flightplan of this aircraft in the system
- you would surely trigger a full blown alert when you start to taxi an aircraft without radio communication to ground , without startup and taxi clearance and without any flightplan issued .
i,m wondering how he made it to takeoff position on the runway ??? i would expect you would be blocked with e.g a fire truck to reach the runway in such a case
-you would get every attention when you startup the engines without any startup clearance and with no flightplan of this aircraft in the system
- you would surely trigger a full blown alert when you start to taxi an aircraft without radio communication to ground , without startup and taxi clearance and without any flightplan issued .
i,m wondering how he made it to takeoff position on the runway ??? i would expect you would be blocked with e.g a fire truck to reach the runway in such a case
Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 18:42.
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I'm not convinced that his intention was to kill himself at the time he made the decision to take the aircraft. He may have made the decision inflight, as the seriousness of his action fully dawned on him. One of the characteristics of many types of personality disorders is poor impulse control. These people get an idea in their head that becomes overpowering and they find themselves unable to stop, even though they are dimly aware of the possible consequences. Many prescription medications can also disrupt normal thought processes and lead to poor impulse control and suicidal ideation. I think that this MAY be the issue behind many of the headlines of late (Robin Williams? Anthony Bourdain? Mass shootings?) The percentage of Americans who regularly take some type of psychotropic drug is staggering (and increasing). According to a recent article in The Washington Post, "more than a third of American adults take prescription drugs linked to depression."
Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 18:56.
I have some sympathy for him when he acknowledges that he's looking at life in jail - try to recover the situation, land the aircraft in one piece and a lifetime in jail is your reward - not much incentive to bring the aircraft back. Sadly, I guess it has to be that way to stop anyone else.
I've not flown a Q400 myself, but based on comments from those who have, could it be this guy was the only person to ever enjoy flying one? Although poorly executed, his barrel roll was flown with gusto.
I've not flown a Q400 myself, but based on comments from those who have, could it be this guy was the only person to ever enjoy flying one? Although poorly executed, his barrel roll was flown with gusto.
Last edited by ZeBedie; 20th Aug 2018 at 20:23.
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Not true in general. Pushback and start clearances are required at many US airports. For example, at LAX I've received clearance for pushback, but hold start until some other aircraft cleared...
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Start clearances are a rarity in the US. Judging from the size of the cargo ramp in question, I am virtually certain that there would be no one to issue a start clearance or a pushback clearance there. The first interaction the aircraft would have with any type of required control is Ground on the movement area, and it's several plane lengths from where the ramp ends and movement area begins, to the runway; leaving too little time for anyone to react after eyebrows being raised. Bottom line, there's nothing odd looking here.
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A specific engine start clearance must be received before the engines may be started at all of the major airports to which I fly outside the US. Startup clearance, per se, is not required at US airports. It is permissible to start the engines and run them at idle power without receiving an ATC clearance. Mechanics do it all the time. To move the aircraft may or may not require ATC permission, depending on the area. Some apron areas are uncontrolled, or are unofficially controlled by non-ATC entities. At ORD, the 6th busiest airport in the world, the cargo ramp from which I operate is uncontrolled -- strictly self-announce like UNICOM at a little airport. It was formerly controlled by UPS, but they no longer do so. I don't know why they stopped -- maybe a liability concern. We push back and start engines there without any clearance from anyone (of course, we have our ATC route clearance). Without any clearances from anyone, we taxi to and hold short of the taxiway and contact ground control. If an airport has gate hold procedures in effect, then we must obtain permission beforehand, even in an uncontrolled area. My domicile is LAX. We must request pushback clearance there from ground control because we are pushing back onto a taxiway controlled by them. We do not request clearance to start engines because it is not required. Of course, if ATC were to request that we not start engines due to a light aircraft taxiing behind, we would comply. But at most (all?) big airports outside the USA, you must request an engine start clearance along with a pushback clearance. You will get cleared for both at the same time or you will get cleared for one, and later, the other.
Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 22:11.
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According to one of the pilots heard on ground control frequency, the DHC-8 came out of Cargo 1, which is adjacent to the threshold of 16L. Very, very short taxi time to 16C, from where he took off. According to my charts, Cargo 1 is controlled by 126.87, which has everything north of taxiway N. That is a lot of apron area (airplanes) to control. It is essentially one half of the passenger terminal and almost all of the cargo areas. Very easy to see how a DHC-8 all the way at the opposite end of where the majority of your movements are occurring could slip out undetected by the ramp controller. And, for all we know, the ramp controller may have attempted to contact him on 126.87. Or the ramp controller may have picked up the phone and informed ground control of the errant aircraft. Not that there was much time to do anything about it.
Last edited by cthruit; 20th Aug 2018 at 21:57.
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Stolen Airplanes is not a new thing.
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ox=1534875608A
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ox=1534875608A
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/th...awk-1745015819
Last edited by KenV; 22nd Aug 2018 at 17:45.
A Marine mechanic stole an A-4 Skyhawk and took if for a joyride. Safely landed it also, with no injuries or damage done, other than to his career.
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/th...awk-1745015819
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/th...awk-1745015819
HAF Industries BOD_Howard
