Trent 1000 losses
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Trent 1000 losses
Rolls-Royce spent more than $721 million this year for issues with its Trent 1000 engine, which Boeing uses for some of its 787 Dreamliners.
That is in addition to the approximately $586 million Rolls-Royce expected in costs to fix its Trent 1000 and Trent 900 engines. The company estimates it will spend $1.6 billion in associated costs to fix the issues with the two engines from 2018 to 2020.
Rolls-Royce posted a $1.64 billion loss for the first half of the year.
This year's extra costs are a result of material issues that caused widespread, significant disruption to Boeing and its airline customers. Scott Hamilton of Leeham Aviation Consulting Co. said the engine issues have impacted Boeing's airplane production, as well.
"At one point at the Everett factory there were about five 787s without engines that were on the flight line and down at Charleston there were three or four without engines on the flight line," he said. "I don't know what kind of delays that were per their delivery contracts but it's very unusual to see airplanes without engines."
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That is in addition to the approximately $586 million Rolls-Royce expected in costs to fix its Trent 1000 and Trent 900 engines. The company estimates it will spend $1.6 billion in associated costs to fix the issues with the two engines from 2018 to 2020.
Rolls-Royce posted a $1.64 billion loss for the first half of the year.
This year's extra costs are a result of material issues that caused widespread, significant disruption to Boeing and its airline customers. Scott Hamilton of Leeham Aviation Consulting Co. said the engine issues have impacted Boeing's airplane production, as well.
"At one point at the Everett factory there were about five 787s without engines that were on the flight line and down at Charleston there were three or four without engines on the flight line," he said. "I don't know what kind of delays that were per their delivery contracts but it's very unusual to see airplanes without engines."
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I wonder if they are the same blocks, that Boeing keeps in stock.
I wonder if they are the same blocks, that Boeing keeps in stock.
It's not always an engine problem that results in their use - often times aircraft are 'built ahead' - rolled out well months ahead of the planned delivery date - to even out the production rate. They hang the concrete engines then push them out to a remote part of Paine Field until the delivery date approaches then they are brought back and the engines are hung (wide body engines are in the $12-$15 million dollar each range, so there would be a large inventory cost associated with hanging engines that won't deliver for several months).
This loss has been in the pipeline for a while now; you can't pull a financial side-step to avoid having to fix a large fleet of in-service engines, they have to be fixed.
Assuming Rolls survives this (seems a safe bet), what will RR look like after all this is done? Poorer, certainly. But fitter? Lots of lessons learned? Expanded production / engineering facilities stood up in order to cope with the extra work? Dunno, but if they did then those might come in handy if they did get back into the small / medium sized engine game again. RR's Advance and Ultrafan look like they're pretty good, so it seems likely that their long term health should be OK. Provided they learn the lessons of this episode.
It's a bit like P&W and their travails with the GTF. We all know that once they've got that right, P&W will be minting it for a long time to come, so the current woes are worth riding out.
Concrete engines - reminds me of the Blue Circle* series of radar sets for RN / RAF aircraft. You know you've got delays when you get a second Mark of concrete radar (i.e. it's had to be upgraded).
*For non-UK readers, Blue Circle is a brand of cement here in the UK.
Assuming Rolls survives this (seems a safe bet), what will RR look like after all this is done? Poorer, certainly. But fitter? Lots of lessons learned? Expanded production / engineering facilities stood up in order to cope with the extra work? Dunno, but if they did then those might come in handy if they did get back into the small / medium sized engine game again. RR's Advance and Ultrafan look like they're pretty good, so it seems likely that their long term health should be OK. Provided they learn the lessons of this episode.
It's a bit like P&W and their travails with the GTF. We all know that once they've got that right, P&W will be minting it for a long time to come, so the current woes are worth riding out.
Concrete engines - reminds me of the Blue Circle* series of radar sets for RN / RAF aircraft. You know you've got delays when you get a second Mark of concrete radar (i.e. it's had to be upgraded).
*For non-UK readers, Blue Circle is a brand of cement here in the UK.
..... engines are in the $12-$15 million dollar each range, so there would be a large inventory cost associated with hanging engines that won't deliver for several months).
That's why there are only a few companies in the world that can afford development and build costs for large planes before the down payments roll in.
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procede,
That is true. It is a different problem than that of RR or PW.
GE built a new assembly factory in Lafayette, Indiana to assemble the hot section modules of LEAP engines. Currently there are orders and commitments for more than 15,500 LEAP engines. Lafayette and other factories in the US and France have to assemble, test and ship 2,000 LEAP engines per year by 2020 to meet the demand as they work through the 7 year-backlog.
The current problem is obtaining the necessary technicians in the US for the Lafayette plant who are in short supply. Technical schools aren't graduating enough aviation oriented technicians these days. The type of candidates that are needed have a high school diploma and an airframe & power plant license issued by the FAA that allows them to work on jet engines. Besides new production the factories handle maintenance, repair and overhauls of engines.
As of early July, there were there were some 217 Airbus planes powered by the LEAP-1A engine and 166 Boeing jets with the LEAP-1B engine. They’ve racked up more than 1.5 million hours flying around in the world.
Boeing is seeing similar problems right now with the 737, partially due to problems with delivery of CFM Leap engines:
GE built a new assembly factory in Lafayette, Indiana to assemble the hot section modules of LEAP engines. Currently there are orders and commitments for more than 15,500 LEAP engines. Lafayette and other factories in the US and France have to assemble, test and ship 2,000 LEAP engines per year by 2020 to meet the demand as they work through the 7 year-backlog.
The current problem is obtaining the necessary technicians in the US for the Lafayette plant who are in short supply. Technical schools aren't graduating enough aviation oriented technicians these days. The type of candidates that are needed have a high school diploma and an airframe & power plant license issued by the FAA that allows them to work on jet engines. Besides new production the factories handle maintenance, repair and overhauls of engines.
As of early July, there were there were some 217 Airbus planes powered by the LEAP-1A engine and 166 Boeing jets with the LEAP-1B engine. They’ve racked up more than 1.5 million hours flying around in the world.
"At one point at the Everett factory there were about five 787s without engines that were on the flight line and down at Charleston there were three or four without engines on the flight line," he said. "I don't know what kind of delays that were per their delivery contracts but it's very unusual to see airplanes without engines."
As has been said, its not unusual.
For RR it's an R&D issue with the design. For P&W it seems an inability to overcome issues in an adequate manner. For GE it's not being able to get in place the staffing to meet their commitments.
All are likely down to budget constraints imposed from the top as if that is all there is to management. A result is the workforce required gets squeezed too much. Whoever put a new GE high-tech plant in the middle of a basically agricultural state, doubtless for cheap land and also low local labour rates, and then found they can't get high-tech qualified employes from Boston or California, or more likely hoping to poach trained and skilled employees from other companies, without noticing that such did not readily exist there. Whatever were their HR people at GE HQ in Boston/New York thinking ?
Whatever were their HR people at GE HQ in Boston/New York thinking ?
what ever happened to apprenticeships?, That's how I got into the business
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Gets them an extra 100 seats per flight (471 seats on this A380 vs 344 or 365 on their 787-9s). But the first three or four A380 flights had big delays, apparently because of overcrowding at JFK T1.
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It's actually the same problem, differing only in detail. The management have failed to put in place the resources they need to produce their product.
For RR it's an R&D issue with the design. For P&W it seems an inability to overcome issues in an adequate manner. For GE it's not being able to get in place the staffing to meet their commitments.
All are likely down to budget constraints imposed from the top as if that is all there is to management. A result is the workforce required gets squeezed too much. Whoever put a new GE high-tech plant in the middle of a basically agricultural state, doubtless for cheap land and also low local labour rates, and then found they can't get high-tech qualified employes from Boston or California, or more likely hoping to poach trained and skilled employees from other companies, without noticing that such did not readily exist there. Whatever were their HR people at GE HQ in Boston/New York thinking ?
For RR it's an R&D issue with the design. For P&W it seems an inability to overcome issues in an adequate manner. For GE it's not being able to get in place the staffing to meet their commitments.
All are likely down to budget constraints imposed from the top as if that is all there is to management. A result is the workforce required gets squeezed too much. Whoever put a new GE high-tech plant in the middle of a basically agricultural state, doubtless for cheap land and also low local labour rates, and then found they can't get high-tech qualified employes from Boston or California, or more likely hoping to poach trained and skilled employees from other companies, without noticing that such did not readily exist there. Whatever were their HR people at GE HQ in Boston/New York thinking ?
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Originally Posted by WHBM
All are likely down to budget constraints imposed from the top as if that is all there is to management. A result is the workforce required gets squeezed too much. Whoever put a new GE high-tech plant in the middle of a basically agricultural state, doubtless for cheap land and also low local labour rates, and then found they can't get high-tech qualified employes from Boston or California, or more likely hoping to poach trained and skilled employees from other companies, without noticing that such did not readily exist there. Whatever were their HR people at GE HQ in Boston/New York thinking ?
All are likely down to budget constraints imposed from the top as if that is all there is to management. A result is the workforce required gets squeezed too much. Whoever put a new GE high-tech plant in the middle of a basically agricultural state, doubtless for cheap land and also low local labour rates, and then found they can't get high-tech qualified employes from Boston or California, or more likely hoping to poach trained and skilled employees from other companies, without noticing that such did not readily exist there. Whatever were their HR people at GE HQ in Boston/New York thinking ?
Facing a Critical Pilot Shortage, Airlines Scramble to Hire New Pilots
Anticipating a wave of retirements, airlines are increasing salaries and benefits to attract and replenish staff
By The Wall Street JournalRobert Wall in London and
Andrew Tangel in Chicago
Aug. 8, 2018 5:30 a.m. ET
Airlines are boosting salaries and setting up training centers to combat what is projected to be one of the biggest-ever pilot shortfalls.
The dearth of pilots has long been forecast, but it is only now that airlines are being forced to act. Boeing Co. estimates that airlines around the world will need to recruit 635,000 pilots over the next two decades to fly the record number of planes being built and to replace the thousands of aviators expected to retire during that span.
“This is one of the largest hiring cycles for airline pilots” in history, said Tim Canoll, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, International, which represents around 60,000 pilots in the U.S. and Canada.
Following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the U.S. and during the 2008 financial crisis, the aviation industry experienced a downturn and airlines consolidated. That made cockpit-crew jobs scarce and pay raises rare.
In recent years, travel has picked up, but the bench of available pilots hasn’t expanded enough to keep pace.
Some smaller airlines in the U.S. have had to scrap flights because they lack staff.
“There are simply too few pilots to operate all of today’s routes and with the coming wave of retirements, the situation will reach crisis levels soon,” said Faye Malarkey Black, president of the Regional Airline Association.
The Lafayette, Indiana factory was built there because GE Aviation gets quite a few technological personnel from Purdue University that is also located there. I might add that Rolls Royce has their only major US Jet engine facility located in Indiana. Indiana is more than agriculture, raising hogs and growing corn.
With a 7 year order backlog worth $220 Billion, do you think for one moment there would be hiring constraints coming from GE headquarters in Boston? I don't think you understand the GE organization and the way it is run. GE has purposefully located facilities around the country, Ohio, North Carolina, Alabama, Kentucky, Texas, etc., to take advantage of available labor needs as well as lowered cost of doing business. The unemployment rate in the United States is nearing an all time historic low. In the airline business and the aircraft engine business employment levels and retirements tend to be cyclic. One of the major problems today is as lomapaseo indicated, lack of apprenticeship programs. So if you are wondering what the HR people at GE HQ were thinking, you might ask that question of airline companies as well:
). But I didn't say 'hiring constraints', I questioned an approach that looks to hire experienced high-tech production staff in, and to be paid at, cornball state levels, or to transfer them there from more sophisticated locations. Sorry, Lafayette, aka Hooterville, and mid-Indiana, but you are what you are. Yes, lack of apprentice training (and I notice here we are speaking about apprentices, not university grads) is an issue apparent worldwide, it goes with the desire not to train anybody ab-initio but to poach them from others, and yet still pay at local labour rates and with poor benefits which the people from Boston HQ would never put up with. Which has worked short term for a generation but now is increasingly an issue.
Last edited by WHBM; 11th Aug 2018 at 00:38.
Yes, lack of apprentice training (and I notice here we are speaking about apprentices, not university grads) is an issue apparent worldwide, it goes with the desire not to train anybody ab-initio but to poach them from others, and yet still pay at local labour rates and with poor benefits which the people from Boston HQ would never put up with. Which has worked short term for a generation but now is increasingly an issue.
It's gotten a little better the last few years - emphasis on students going into STEM fields, but there are a lot of people who don't have the mental makeup and/or skillsets to be a good engineers - but have talents that would allow them to become very successful in vocational-technical fields. As a society, we've stopped valuing the people who actual make or fix stuff. That needs to change...
Apprenticeships
RR recognised the need for a strong education programme long ago, and has a centre in Derby specifically for it. It's pretty good and competition to get on their apprenticeship scheme is strong. Quite a few large companies do this kind of thing here in the UK, having realised that mainstream education is no longer focused on churning out youngsters with good technical skills.
Apprenticeships are increasingly seen as a better idea compared to degrees. Getting on to a good apprenticeship scheme means you're earning a salary, building up pension, getting a college education, and being tailored to be a very useful employee with excellent prospects. Going to university means being saddled with £40k+ debt, 3, 4 years less pension, likely still learning on the job and possibly starting underneath someone who did the apprenticeship.
Apprenticeships are increasingly seen as a better idea compared to degrees. Getting on to a good apprenticeship scheme means you're earning a salary, building up pension, getting a college education, and being tailored to be a very useful employee with excellent prospects. Going to university means being saddled with £40k+ debt, 3, 4 years less pension, likely still learning on the job and possibly starting underneath someone who did the apprenticeship.
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RR recognised the need for a strong education programme long ago, and has a centre in Derby specifically for it. It's pretty good and competition to get on their apprenticeship scheme is strong. Quite a few large companies do this kind of thing here in the UK, having realised that mainstream education is no longer focused on churning out youngsters with good technical skills.
Apprenticeships are increasingly seen as a better idea compared to degrees. Getting on to a good apprenticeship scheme means you're earning a salary, building up pension, getting a college education, and being tailored to be a very useful employee with excellent prospects. Going to university means being saddled with £40k+ debt, 3, 4 years less pension, likely still learning on the job and possibly starting underneath someone who did the apprenticeship.
Apprenticeships are increasingly seen as a better idea compared to degrees. Getting on to a good apprenticeship scheme means you're earning a salary, building up pension, getting a college education, and being tailored to be a very useful employee with excellent prospects. Going to university means being saddled with £40k+ debt, 3, 4 years less pension, likely still learning on the job and possibly starting underneath someone who did the apprenticeship.
