Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in
The Cooler King
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Always be wary of the guy who can't just go to the next sector, but instead has to say his piece about his 'experience'.
It's a disagreement between two people doing a job. The option of not following the pack was two orbits and the usual New Yohhk controller treatment.
Par for the course.
They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
It's a disagreement between two people doing a job. The option of not following the pack was two orbits and the usual New Yohhk controller treatment.
Par for the course.
They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
Shamrock stated they were familiar with NYC flying. The departure off 22R for transatlantic flights is always runway heading with tower followed by a left turn east almost as soon as you switch departure. You can’t turn right or continue straight because of both departure flows from LGA and 31LeftKE departures which make a hard left to avoid LGA. If I can’t turn left due to weather I inform tower before accepting a TO clearance. The weather overlay seems to show no weather issues with a left turn and flights before and after had no issues. North of LGA and JFK was getting hammered which would make the southern area extremely busy airspace. I doubt the vectors were for spite and they probably had to suspend departures from 31L or LGA depending on configuration. NYC atc has very good weather overlays and they discontinue departures quickly when weather blocks a route. They also provide calls as to WX intensity ahead on a routine baises. They use terminology level 1 through 6 precipitation.
You can make some inference from Delta 191 at DFW but it’s slight at best. One was a aircraft in approach configuration at low altitude descending at minimum speed and the other was a clean aircraft climbing at a much higher altitude and speed. From a safety standpoint a apples to oranges situation.
I call you back
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Listen to the recording again.
The previous aircraft, a Delta, requested a further left turn due to the weather of 070˚. The Shamrock was next and was given a heading of 100˚ (presumably the Delta was given something similar) but refused the turn due to the weather. The weather may have been moving north or north east as would be common, especially if the wind was down the runway 22. Looking at the screen this appears to be the same weather as the Delta had requested avoidance for, granted the Delta opted to pass the weather to the north while the Shamrock chose to pass it to the south. Also according to the screen color coding, there were different levels of intensity in the weather, not simply the 'lightest' one.
It is certainly not correct to suggest that the 330 crew were alone in their concerns regarding the weather, as the controller seems to suggest. I'd like to hear the recording for the previous few departures.
The previous aircraft, a Delta, requested a further left turn due to the weather of 070˚. The Shamrock was next and was given a heading of 100˚ (presumably the Delta was given something similar) but refused the turn due to the weather. The weather may have been moving north or north east as would be common, especially if the wind was down the runway 22. Looking at the screen this appears to be the same weather as the Delta had requested avoidance for, granted the Delta opted to pass the weather to the north while the Shamrock chose to pass it to the south. Also according to the screen color coding, there were different levels of intensity in the weather, not simply the 'lightest' one.
It is certainly not correct to suggest that the 330 crew were alone in their concerns regarding the weather, as the controller seems to suggest. I'd like to hear the recording for the previous few departures.
They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
)
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I agree. Attitude and RT from Shamrock was poor throughout, and the controller is just having to deal with an unexpected disruption to the flow, and slot him back in (also a cheek of shamrock to be requesting the direct when he had gotten tired of the hold, and ironic that the direct would have taken him the same route as he would have gone anyway) .
Reading the weather radar is as much an art as a science, borne of worldwide experience, and despite his on air posturing, a shamrock pilot does not often get to see the huge and intense stuff such as is found in Asia and Africa. In fact, my observation is that European pilots often deviate round the smallest returns, and what's worse, do it in a demanding way like they're asserting their own self importance. I also often hear pilots in europe carrying out their own deviations around fairly minor returns, without first getting permission, which quite rightly sometimes gets a rebuke from the controller.
Reading the weather radar is as much an art as a science, borne of worldwide experience, and despite his on air posturing, a shamrock pilot does not often get to see the huge and intense stuff such as is found in Asia and Africa. In fact, my observation is that European pilots often deviate round the smallest returns, and what's worse, do it in a demanding way like they're asserting their own self importance. I also often hear pilots in europe carrying out their own deviations around fairly minor returns, without first getting permission, which quite rightly sometimes gets a rebuke from the controller.
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As a NY Tracon controller, reading some of the misinformation in some of the replies in this thread has been very entertaining, but it also reminds me that very few people actually know just how complex our airspace is. There is a lot of background context that's always missed on situations like this one. I will agree that he could had phrased it differently, but having been myself in similar situations before, I can understand why he reacted that way.
We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks. Add that to the frustration of watching 1 aircraft deviate way differently than all the previous aircraft just before it, understand that there is a human being behind the screen, not a machine. Sometimes emotions can get even the best of us. He has over 3 decades of experience and is retiring at the end of this year. very cool guy, he's not a douche. Though he didn't do anything wrong from the operational point of view, I'm sure he would probably word it differently if he had a chance to go back in time.
I'm sure that there are other busy places by volume, but I doubt that there is another place in the world with this many high volume airports so close to each other. We many not be the busiest (though we're up there) but we are definitely the most complex. A deviation in other busy places may be not be such a big deal other than extra frequency workload, but here it's very likely to put you in direct conflict with other traffic.
That particular shift we were in swap and GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open to ALL N90 airports, so departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB, MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki), plus all other satellites were being launched with timed intervals. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA airspace with all the traffic that was there already confined tighter because of the weather. We do NOT penalize the aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can meet becomes available. Our airspace is so tight that we do not have holding patterns within N90 airspace. If we need to hold, we have to issue box pattern vectors like he did. All our holding patterns are on the outter fixes in center airspace.
I could go on a longer and more detailed explanation of why he did what he did move by move, but it would require more time than I'm willing to commit to this.
We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks. Add that to the frustration of watching 1 aircraft deviate way differently than all the previous aircraft just before it, understand that there is a human being behind the screen, not a machine. Sometimes emotions can get even the best of us. He has over 3 decades of experience and is retiring at the end of this year. very cool guy, he's not a douche. Though he didn't do anything wrong from the operational point of view, I'm sure he would probably word it differently if he had a chance to go back in time.
I'm sure that there are other busy places by volume, but I doubt that there is another place in the world with this many high volume airports so close to each other. We many not be the busiest (though we're up there) but we are definitely the most complex. A deviation in other busy places may be not be such a big deal other than extra frequency workload, but here it's very likely to put you in direct conflict with other traffic.
That particular shift we were in swap and GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open to ALL N90 airports, so departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB, MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki), plus all other satellites were being launched with timed intervals. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA airspace with all the traffic that was there already confined tighter because of the weather. We do NOT penalize the aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can meet becomes available. Our airspace is so tight that we do not have holding patterns within N90 airspace. If we need to hold, we have to issue box pattern vectors like he did. All our holding patterns are on the outter fixes in center airspace.
I could go on a longer and more detailed explanation of why he did what he did move by move, but it would require more time than I'm willing to commit to this.
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N90-EWR
Many thanks for that. Most interesting to hear it from your point of view. It is pretty much what I expected. Clearly there was stress and frustration on both sides.
Many thanks for that. Most interesting to hear it from your point of view. It is pretty much what I expected. Clearly there was stress and frustration on both sides.
The Captain has the ultimate responsibility
for the aircraft and passengers, he or she has total authority for its operation
Some posters seem to have forgotten that
A controller, no matter how busy he is doesn’t have the option to overide that
Perhaps this flight didn’t fit in with his plan, well, make a new one, the dynamics of convective activity demand flexibility
Ideally this should be a cooperative effort between Pilots and Controllers but if ATC won’t help but worse points you towards weather you’re not comfortable with you have to speak up and take action
As this Captain did, from the recording it’s apparent he stayed very calm, unlike the controller who aggravated the situation by loosing his cool
The ‘you got yourself in this situation’ statement was ridiculous and implied this controller was going to screw around with this flight to alleviate his obvious frustration
Highly unprofessional, he seemed to forget those blips have people in them
I don’t blame the Captain at all for his parting
remarks, they were appropriate and very restrained, unlike this controller
I’ve flown into all three NY airports since 1987 and had some rare testy exchanges on the radio but nothing like this
We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks
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He did make a new plan, which is the same plan any of us would had done: Hold him until a gap to go back over GREKI became available. The only thing he did wrong was getting into a verbal contest with the pilot, which I agree was unnecessary. I'd argue that the "my boss will call your boss" parting shot from the pilot was also uncalled for as well.
Its a team effort, but until the controller gets to ride the beast too wherever it might end up, controllers are there ultimately in an advisory capacity with the implicit trust of the crews to provide a service.
There are some wonderful and talented people working in the NY area doing a tough job in ATC, this guy appears to either be having a bad day or is overloaded.
The fungus guy for his part didn't do anything initially different to what many of do day to day, the whole "I've been flying etc etc" from him was pointless and unnecessary.
The wider point needs however to be reiterated, the Commander is ultimately responsible, so never allow yourself to be be bullied, cajoled or even unduly influenced into a decision that you fell isn't safe.
I've read all sorts online about this potentially causing capacity problems in NY airspace due to a variety of complex issues, from the perspective of the commander Id say so what? that is a problem for someone else to resolve, a damaged or mayday aircraft will also cause significant disruption most likely far worse than a few delays.
There are some wonderful and talented people working in the NY area doing a tough job in ATC, this guy appears to either be having a bad day or is overloaded.
The fungus guy for his part didn't do anything initially different to what many of do day to day, the whole "I've been flying etc etc" from him was pointless and unnecessary.
The wider point needs however to be reiterated, the Commander is ultimately responsible, so never allow yourself to be be bullied, cajoled or even unduly influenced into a decision that you fell isn't safe.
I've read all sorts online about this potentially causing capacity problems in NY airspace due to a variety of complex issues, from the perspective of the commander Id say so what? that is a problem for someone else to resolve, a damaged or mayday aircraft will also cause significant disruption most likely far worse than a few delays.
N90, really appreciate putting your side of the incident. I can understand what being overworked, undemanned and pretty stressed feels like, as that is the state of many of us in the flight deck too. However, there is too often a hectoring and aggressive approach over the radio in New York, be that on the ground in JFK or when speaking to approach.
NY approach are pretty good, and have some serious airspace issues to contend with, but they would be a whole lot better if they spoke more slowly, used standard RT, and remembered that not everyone comes to JFK every day.
This is is also another example of the lack of understanding on both sides of the microphone - fam flights are few and far between these days, and it would be v unlikely that a controller has had the experience of sitting on a jump seat watching the crew try to pick their way through the weather or understanding some of the issues with “too clever by half” modern weather radars.
NY approach are pretty good, and have some serious airspace issues to contend with, but they would be a whole lot better if they spoke more slowly, used standard RT, and remembered that not everyone comes to JFK every day.
This is is also another example of the lack of understanding on both sides of the microphone - fam flights are few and far between these days, and it would be v unlikely that a controller has had the experience of sitting on a jump seat watching the crew try to pick their way through the weather or understanding some of the issues with “too clever by half” modern weather radars.
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As a NY Tracon controller, reading some of the misinformation in some of the replies in this thread has been very entertaining, but it also reminds me that very few people actually know just how complex our airspace is. There is a lot of background context that's always missed on situations like this one. I will agree that he could had phrased it differently, but having been myself in similar situations before, I can understand why he reacted that way.
We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks. Add that to the frustration of watching 1 aircraft deviate way differently than all the previous aircraft just before it, understand that there is a human being behind the screen, not a machine. Sometimes emotions can get even the best of us. He has over 3 decades of experience and is retiring at the end of this year. very cool guy, he's not a douche. Though he didn't do anything wrong from the operational point of view, I'm sure he would probably word it differently if he had a chance to go back in time.
I'm sure that there are other busy places by volume, but I doubt that there is another place in the world with this many high volume airports so close to each other. We many not be the busiest (though we're up there) but we are definitely the most complex. A deviation in other busy places may be not be such a big deal other than extra frequency workload, but here it's very likely to put you in direct conflict with other traffic.
That particular shift we were in swap and GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open to ALL N90 airports, so departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB, MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki), plus all other satellites were being launched with timed intervals. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA airspace with all the traffic that was there already confined tighter because of the weather. We do NOT penalize the aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can meet becomes available. Our airspace is so tight that we do not have holding patterns within N90 airspace. If we need to hold, we have to issue box pattern vectors like he did. All our holding patterns are on the outter fixes in center airspace.
I could go on a longer and more detailed explanation of why he did what he did move by move, but it would require more time than I'm willing to commit to this.
We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks. Add that to the frustration of watching 1 aircraft deviate way differently than all the previous aircraft just before it, understand that there is a human being behind the screen, not a machine. Sometimes emotions can get even the best of us. He has over 3 decades of experience and is retiring at the end of this year. very cool guy, he's not a douche. Though he didn't do anything wrong from the operational point of view, I'm sure he would probably word it differently if he had a chance to go back in time.
I'm sure that there are other busy places by volume, but I doubt that there is another place in the world with this many high volume airports so close to each other. We many not be the busiest (though we're up there) but we are definitely the most complex. A deviation in other busy places may be not be such a big deal other than extra frequency workload, but here it's very likely to put you in direct conflict with other traffic.
That particular shift we were in swap and GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open to ALL N90 airports, so departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB, MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki), plus all other satellites were being launched with timed intervals. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA airspace with all the traffic that was there already confined tighter because of the weather. We do NOT penalize the aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can meet becomes available. Our airspace is so tight that we do not have holding patterns within N90 airspace. If we need to hold, we have to issue box pattern vectors like he did. All our holding patterns are on the outter fixes in center airspace.
I could go on a longer and more detailed explanation of why he did what he did move by move, but it would require more time than I'm willing to commit to this.
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Always be wary of the guy who can't just go to the next sector, but instead has to say his piece about his 'experience'.
It's a disagreement between two people doing a job. The option of not following the pack was two orbits and the usual New Yohhk controller treatment.
Par for the course.
They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
It's a disagreement between two people doing a job. The option of not following the pack was two orbits and the usual New Yohhk controller treatment.
Par for the course.
They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
How many times have you been flying in and out of the New York area?
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If I am going to go into writing about a controller then as a courtesy more than anything, I will let him or her know before I leave the frequency. Nothing to do with willy waving but purely as a 'heads-up' for the controller, so that they can collate their thoughts when they unplug and if allowed, then it gives them the chance to listen to the tapes whilst everything is still fresh in their mind. When the subsequent email or phone call comes asking for more information, they will at least be prepared for it.
I would have perhaps have worded it differently to how my fellow Irishman did but that is easy for me to say in hindsight. I did think he showed more restraint than many others would though.
There is no place for emotion on the R/T, regardless of where you are are in the world. Keep it concise and operationally relevant or otherwise keep quiet and don't say it.
I would have perhaps have worded it differently to how my fellow Irishman did but that is easy for me to say in hindsight. I did think he showed more restraint than many others would though.
There is no place for emotion on the R/T, regardless of where you are are in the world. Keep it concise and operationally relevant or otherwise keep quiet and don't say it.
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Maybe we should learn more about how we can improve in this regard?
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Fascinating reading everyone's take on this, particularly N90-EWR's.
There's a lot of talk about Captain's authority etc, and in the clip I see no evidence of this being undermined. I agree that there were comments from both parties that were clumsy and unnecessary.
The point I would make, however, is that a lot of the conversation above revolves around what happened in the air; To use common TEM parlance - how the threat of weather (and mid-air cillision) were mitigated against. But this authority of the commander does not magically appear on rotation - it exists on the ground. So I wonder if maybe the whole thing could have been avoided. NY TRACON can't make the aircraft turn left, just as JFK TWR can't make the captain depart.
Was the left turn after departure what the crew were expecting? If not - was their mental model deficient?
I don't have the pleasure of visiting the NYC area, but my home base is also in a busy, although probably simpler TMA. As far as I have been told, if we feel we can't comply with our departure instructions due weather, the tower would rather know in advance and would be happy to coordinate a safe route with the departure controller. What they really seem to like is if you tell them what you want/need clearly, and concisely.
Just my two penneth.
There's a lot of talk about Captain's authority etc, and in the clip I see no evidence of this being undermined. I agree that there were comments from both parties that were clumsy and unnecessary.
The point I would make, however, is that a lot of the conversation above revolves around what happened in the air; To use common TEM parlance - how the threat of weather (and mid-air cillision) were mitigated against. But this authority of the commander does not magically appear on rotation - it exists on the ground. So I wonder if maybe the whole thing could have been avoided. NY TRACON can't make the aircraft turn left, just as JFK TWR can't make the captain depart.
Was the left turn after departure what the crew were expecting? If not - was their mental model deficient?
I don't have the pleasure of visiting the NYC area, but my home base is also in a busy, although probably simpler TMA. As far as I have been told, if we feel we can't comply with our departure instructions due weather, the tower would rather know in advance and would be happy to coordinate a safe route with the departure controller. What they really seem to like is if you tell them what you want/need clearly, and concisely.
Just my two penneth.
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Off all the major airports in the developed world JFK has most probably the worst ATC followed closely by Chicago.
rude, non standard and chaotic. Other major airports like Atlanta, Houston and LAX are all very professional.
rude, non standard and chaotic. Other major airports like Atlanta, Houston and LAX are all very professional.
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One problem with the 100 heading is Shamrock is probably expecting to stay on that heading for 5 miles while ATC would have soon after given another turn to 050 or something more towards the north.
Pilots plan a heading 10 or 15 miles ahead regarding weather. So ATC can say keep the turn tight i'll soon give you a further turn. Or how far out is the cell you are talking about would make sense. Or just give the turn around in one go, which is problematic as the preceding plane may have had insufficient separation to do that.