Irish airspace and Brexit
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All told the EU cannot do a damn thing itself since it is not a state. ICAO therefore recognises the individual countries that make up the EU, not the EU itself; the EU has 'observer' status at ICAO. And Ireland would be in direct contravention of the ICAO treaties that it has signed up to. Could it happen? Well.... just ask Qatar.
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Fatigued Fred - my comment was very firmly laying out the situation in the case that the Republic of Ireland had acted first. AFAIK, the UK is not threatening to stop EU aircraft from operating in the UK. What I have seen, is several threats from the EU and countries therein to stop the UK from operating in the EU post brexit.
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Fatigued Fred - my comment was very firmly laying out the situation in the case that the Republic of Ireland had acted first. AFAIK, the UK is not threatening to stop EU aircraft from operating in the UK. What I have seen, is several threats from the EU and countries therein to stop the UK from operating in the EU post brexit.
Facts that once the UK are out of the Union that they must re-negotiate various agreements are not threats, they are statements of fact.
Remind me again who owns The Sun?
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...-a3189151.html
What is the paper's position on Brexit?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/127792...um-on-june-23/
The reality of the comment?
FactCheck: Did the Taoiseach threaten to ban British planes from Irish skies?
In short, an archetypal UK red top tabloid hollows of the facts from a story, fills the space with misrepresentation that matches its owners agenda and pushes it a news. While the topic is newsworthy the Sun spin does no-one any service.
To borrow from Charles Dickens
Mr.Gradgrind, Hard Times.
JAS
I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”
What is the paper's position on Brexit?
We urge our readers to beLEAVE in Britain and vote to quit the EU on June 23
The reality of the comment?
The Taoiseach was answering questions on whether there were preparations for an aviation treaty in the event of a hard Brexit, or a no-deal scenario. After being pressed on whether they were already underway, he said that there was a focus on a Brexit deal between the EU and the UK.
In short, an archetypal UK red top tabloid hollows of the facts from a story, fills the space with misrepresentation that matches its owners agenda and pushes it a news. While the topic is newsworthy the Sun spin does no-one any service.
To borrow from Charles Dickens
'NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!'
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Mr Varadkar hasn’t been misquoted; it seems it’s he who wants Boris’s cake and eat it A “crash-out” Brexit would be terrible for everyone. How can he possibly imagine Irish fishermen would be exempt from the consequences?
Last edited by ShotOne; 21st Jul 2018 at 05:52.
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Ok more petrol being poured on -
What about the EU saying the RAF cannot use any Cyprus bases?
Cutting, nose,spite and face are words that come to mind..
Roll on exit..
What about the EU saying the RAF cannot use any Cyprus bases?
Cutting, nose,spite and face are words that come to mind..
Roll on exit..
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Direct quote?
“If they want their planes to fly over our skies, they would need to take that into account. You can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t take back your waters and then expect to take back other people’s sky.”
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If you are really bored, you can see the official EU position here:
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...-transport.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...-transport.pdf
Goodness me, how did we ever manage to operate air services to the present countries of the EU prior to our joining the EEC in 1973? Could we hope to find sufficient competence to regulate the multiple aspects of our aerospace industry in the absence of the regulatory expertise of EASA? Why would any of the 27 remaining EU countries ever want to enter our airspace or sell us any of their aerospace products? Why would an EU-registered airline want to continue operating the majority of its services from a hub in the UK?
Chris Scott: When the UK joined the EEC in 1973, there was no single European open skies arrangement. That came much later.
In 1973 there was a network of bilateral aviation agreements which throttled competition, and going back to 1973 is probably unfeasible (the EU as a whole would negotiate any new post-Brexit agreement). Who wants to go back to the old world of bilateral monopoly arrangement and astronomically high air fares?
Brexit a problem? Just put the clock back 45 years. I love it!
In 1973 there was a network of bilateral aviation agreements which throttled competition, and going back to 1973 is probably unfeasible (the EU as a whole would negotiate any new post-Brexit agreement). Who wants to go back to the old world of bilateral monopoly arrangement and astronomically high air fares?
Brexit a problem? Just put the clock back 45 years. I love it!
Just another example of the delusions that have driven the UK to it's current position as the laughing stock of Europe.
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As usual with BREXIT the problem is really fractal, the closer you look, the more complicated it becomes.
Upon leaving the EU without a deal the UK would also leave Eurocontrol, EASA, Euratom and a quite large list of other agencies and treaties, amongst others the EU open sky agreement, the open sky agreements with the US and other parties. What would that mean?
All EASA licenses issued by the UK CAA would no longer be valid and recognised anywhere world wide with the possible exception of the UK.
The UK and its airlines would no longer be able to access Eurocontrol, the slot system and any air traffic control agreement under that umbrella would be null and void. Doesn't matter, the ATCO licenses are no longer valid anyway.
The UK airlines would have no route rights into europe at all, nor into the US unless a new UK-US open sky agreement has been done. Initial talks on that matter were, well, quite sobering for the UK.
No UK aircraft would be deemed airworthy if the airworthiness certificate was issued by the UK CAA or under UK CAA guidance.
Of course, any completely UK or third country certified (not based on EASA rules) aircraft and aircrew would be able to overfly EU countries and even land in the EU under the montreal convention, but they would not have any airport slots nor route rights.
That is all based on a no-deal scenario. It becomes more likely right now, but there is still a slim chance for a hastily done deal, although for that the UK would have to completely cave in as the EU is not in any way able to get away from its red lines (integrity of the single market system).
The only UK airline that has tried to prepare for BREXIT in its reality so far with shifting a third of its fleet into a european AOC. However, with the very small exception of the recently hired TXL based crew the rest of the airline is completely UK certified. Which means it will be effectively grounded with a small number of flights being able to be operated out of TXL.
Upon leaving the EU without a deal the UK would also leave Eurocontrol, EASA, Euratom and a quite large list of other agencies and treaties, amongst others the EU open sky agreement, the open sky agreements with the US and other parties. What would that mean?
All EASA licenses issued by the UK CAA would no longer be valid and recognised anywhere world wide with the possible exception of the UK.
The UK and its airlines would no longer be able to access Eurocontrol, the slot system and any air traffic control agreement under that umbrella would be null and void. Doesn't matter, the ATCO licenses are no longer valid anyway.
The UK airlines would have no route rights into europe at all, nor into the US unless a new UK-US open sky agreement has been done. Initial talks on that matter were, well, quite sobering for the UK.
No UK aircraft would be deemed airworthy if the airworthiness certificate was issued by the UK CAA or under UK CAA guidance.
Of course, any completely UK or third country certified (not based on EASA rules) aircraft and aircrew would be able to overfly EU countries and even land in the EU under the montreal convention, but they would not have any airport slots nor route rights.
That is all based on a no-deal scenario. It becomes more likely right now, but there is still a slim chance for a hastily done deal, although for that the UK would have to completely cave in as the EU is not in any way able to get away from its red lines (integrity of the single market system).
The only UK airline that has tried to prepare for BREXIT in its reality so far with shifting a third of its fleet into a european AOC. However, with the very small exception of the recently hired TXL based crew the rest of the airline is completely UK certified. Which means it will be effectively grounded with a small number of flights being able to be operated out of TXL.
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And surely the reciprocal applies. Should the EU decide UK carriers can no longer operate into the EU, then what makes them think the UK will allow EU based carriers to the UK? And I suppose the same can be applied to all the other notices/directives.
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How many European airlines have enough fat in their balance sheets to tolerate the excommunication of a post Brexit UK.
If Brussels decides to play silly beggars then the share value of all European airlines will be reduced to junk status.
Not sure how Barnier, Juncker et al will sell that outcome to the CEOs and the shareholders of their flag carriers.
If Brussels decides to play silly beggars then the share value of all European airlines will be reduced to junk status.
Not sure how Barnier, Juncker et al will sell that outcome to the CEOs and the shareholders of their flag carriers.
BTW, in relation to Mr Varadkar's threat (whoops, I beg his pardon: observations) on British a/c using Irish airspace, here's another example in which pragmatism would take precedence:
https://order-order.com/2018/07/20/i...rorist-hijack/
I wonder what Mr O'Leary thinks of the Irish drum-beating on behalf of the EU.
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Flying over right (first freedom) is covered by IASTA which both the UK and Ireland signed decades before the EU even existed, it has nothing to do with EU membership or hard or soft Brexit. That is a fact. Stating that the UK must re-negotiate various agreements, including Open Skies, in the event of Brexit is also a fact. Stating "...If they want their planes to fly over our skies ..." has no basis in fact unless Ireland intends to leave IASTA, it is not a threat, it is simply b***ocks.